The Structural Engineering Profession (Structurals/Civils only please) 9

[csd72]

In response to some questions made in the Architectural/Structural Fee Residential post I felt that this topic needed its own thread. This topic has been covered before in the more social forums but usually they get overrun with the mechanical/electrical types which, in my experience seem to have a much better deal than those of our particular profession.

I read the website of the burj dubai under design and found the following paragraph second down on the page.

"Ultimately, the honour of designing the world's tallest tower was awarded the global leader in creating ultra-tall structures, the Chicago office of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP (SOM) with Adrian Smith FAIA, RIBA, consulting design Partner. The selected design was subject to an extensive peer review program to confirm the safety and effectiveness of the structural systems."

The reason why I point this out is that the only person mentioned is an architect followed by a description of tasks that would have been carried out by structural engineers. In my brief search I found no mention of the structural engineer who was the person responsible for the design.

If we cannot get recognition for one of the greatest engineering achievements this decade then when are we going to get it? It was an engineering achievement, it was not an architectural achievement. Architecturally impressive, yes, but there are far more ground breaking architectural achievements out there. But somehow it is an architect that gets the only mention.

Is our problem that we are constantly in the shadow of architects? The only parallel I have been able to find is that of nurses to doctors even though I am not happy with the comparison.

I am a strong believer that we only have our peers to blame and that only ourselves to pull us out of this. I disagree with those who say that we just need to educate the public and all will be alright. If you could get a lawyer for $20 and hour would you offer to pay them more because they deserved it? Of course not!

I also strongly disagree with those who say that the knowledge of our profession is not as unique as those of a dentist e.t.c. To those people I say that a dentist only needs to understand teeth, gums, the effects of drugs and the effects of working with the required materials, a structural engineer needs to understand steel, concrete, aluminium, glass, timber, structural analysis, corrosion, and has training in mathematics, materials, physics, chemistry.... We often underestimate the breadth of what we have learned to get to where we are.

As far as comparing our responsibility to that of a surgeon I will quote one of my university lecturers. "a surgeon can only kill one person at once, as a civil engineer you can kill thousands of people!"

I have rambled on enough, but I am interested in hearing any comments regarding fees, the state of the profession, what to do about it and anything else that people want to air about this great but underappreciated profession.

 

[hokie66]

A topic for the ages, but in the case of Skidmore, they are an AE firm, and their website gives attribution to the structural engineers.

http://www.som.com/content.cfm/burj_khalifa

 

[IDS]

A topic for the ages, but in the case of Skidmore, they are an AE firm, and their website gives attribution to the structural engineers.

Well they mention (at the bottom of the list) that there were some unnamed engineers involved, but the only person identified as a designer is an architect, and wikipedia is in no doubt about the person responsible for the design:

"Adrian D. Smith (born August 19, 1944) is an American architect who has designed skyscrapers including the Burj Khalifa, Jin Mao Tower and Trump International Hotel and Tower."

But to be fair to Wikipedia, further search finds:

"The tower's architecture and engineering were performed by Skidmore, Owings and Merrill of Chicago, with Adrian Smith as chief architect, and Bill Baker as chief structural engineer.[10][11] The primary contractor was Samsung C&T of South Korea.[12]"

So a star to Wikipedia, and a "could do better" to SOM.

The only recent project I know of where the engineer has received due recognition is the Millau Viaduct. The engineer Michel Virlogeux even gets first mention in the Wikipedia article! I know nothing of the office politics during the design stage, but I strongly suspect that the only reason that Virlogeux gets a high profile on this job is that he demanded it, and I guess that's the message to all of us. If you are head of the engineering team on a high profile project you owe it to yourself, the team and the profession to shout about it.

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services

http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/

 

[soiset]

csd72, I feel ya. Allow me to depress you further. Before I was licensed, I worked for a small firm in WA state. There was a senior engineer there that would drop by my office, and see me working furiously on pages and pages of calculations, doing all I could to achieve efficiency of design. He'd put his hand on my shoulder and say, "nobody cares."

I wouldn't admit it then, but he was right, very few people have any idea what we do, and even fewer give a damn. People like, and are willing to pay for, things that they can SEE, particularly if it will impress their friends. Nobody cares about design - they care about a shiny new car, a big TV, granite countertops, and high end appliances. They see engineers as another PITA cog in the PITA bureaucracy, who only have work to do because busy-body officials want to make life hard on people that are actually trying to get stuff done.

Structural engineering is often very hard, as I'm sure you know. The education, licensing journey and process, and daily work of an engineer can really beat you down, and then there is all the liability. Relative to the knowledge base, skills, tools, liability, job pressures, and personal investment required, we are paid crap.

Here's a real life fer-instance. I started renting out portable dance floors (the kind you see at weddings, set up in a carpeted conference room) in December, and am making a lot more per hour than I do, or ever did, engineering. People can SEE my floors, and they ooh and aah over them, and fork over the cash. It's obscene how much better it pays, and besides some heavy lifting, it's cake. Except that is a horrible business, and nobody else should try to get into it, especially in Dallas.

 

[Lion06]

soiset-
Here's another real life fer-instance for you. In a previous life I assembled storm doors. Yes, working in a factory assembling storm doors. My last year doing that while going to school part time was 8 years ago.

As you can imagine, there was a busy time of year and a slow time of year. I worked on average 1700 hours/year (about 33 hours/week). I made 30% more in 1700 hours of assembling storm doors 8 years ago than I do now working 2500 hours as a structural engineer. I didn't have near the stress or responsibility that I do now. When I clocked out I was done for the day. I didn't need to worry about bringing work home with me or finishing up a design on the weekend.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't go back. I love what I do. I enjoy the diversity of the projects and feeling like I'm making a difference. I just hate how poorly we're compensated.

I can't tell you how much that boggles my mind every time I think about it. It's disheartening, really.

 

[hokie66]

IDS,
I did say website, not just web page. If you click on "Structural System" in the upper right corner, it goes to the page about the structure, where three engineering executives are attributed. That was the page I copied, but some websites automatically index on the front page.

 

[IDS]

hokie66 - OK, add Burj Khalifa to Milau Viaduct.

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services

http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/

 

[csd72]

Hokie66,

the quote was taken from the tower owners site.

http://www.burjkhalifa.ae/

My point was that they skipped from naming the architect to talking about the structural system in the same paragraph. When the information comes across this way it is no wonder that the public are not aware that the structural engineering profession exists.

IDS,

I think more of us should demand recognition for our efforts.

soiset/Lion06,

I saw on a program for Australia that a cable telivision installer could be earning more money than I was earning there with 5 years experience. Go figure.

I could write a ten page essay on this and what my opinions are. In fact I probably have if you count up my multitude of posts on this topic. But I neither have the time nor the audience for it.

So what is the problem and what should be done about it?

 

[LiloSA]

Yes, the structural engineer is rarely acknowledged - the little bronze plate on the building only show the names of the client, architect and main contractor involved...

I guess we'll just have to start insisting on recognition from the beginning of a project. For instance, including a clause in the agreement documentation which states that whenever the project is to be mentioned in any publication whatsoever, the entire team will be given credit. As IDS put it "If you are head of the engineering team on a high profile project you owe it to yourself, the team and the profession to shout about it."

As for the remuneration - the last couple of years we had to tender for professional services. It started with 5-10% discount on the prescibed engineering fees and tariffs, but it has gotten out of hand. The companies are tendering at 50-70% discount! Now it has become a quantity over quality type profession, just to be able to show profit at the end of the day.

I must say that I am proud to be an engineer and I also like for my work to show that pride. Therefore, I still put in more time than the 'allowable' to produce quality work, and as such, profit margins are low (if any). The problem is, it is making the structural engineering profession cheap and degrading.

Since you'll always have some guys tendering at ridiculously low prices, the problem cannot be fixed by just sticking to your guns and keeping to the prescribed rates when tendering - you'll run out of business in no time. I believe that the only body that can sort this out is the country's Engineering Council/Institution and I hope something is done...soon.

 

[csd72]

LiloSA,

Have you considered that maybe you have the wrong customers?

The problem is that the profesional institutions are normally stifled by competition laws. Their only tool is really that they can specify minimum standards of care for a given type of design and potentially discipline members who do not meet them. Does not help unless membership is compulsory.

 

[Lion06]

Lilo-

I don't know if that's true. I don't know how many one-man shops are around willing to work at ridiculously discounted rates, but it's certainly not enough to put everyone out of business. I mean, if you turned down every job like that, eventually they're going to run out of people willing to work for that. I just don't believe that there are enough that could take on a big influx of work at 50% of what they should be charging.

It's the bidding that is the problem. Knowing that there's the possibility some guy is going to come in super low could easily affect what you quote as your fee. Maybe you think, I'll come in higher than the other guy, but can get the job based on superior credentials and experience with this client.

I'm not saying it NEVER happens, but I've never seen someone walk into the dentist and say, "You know, XYZ dentist only charges $50 for a cleaning. You want to charge me $120? Why? Can you beat AYZ's price?". They would simply reply, "Got to XYZ".

Why don't engineers do that? If a client says, "We've worked well together and I like our relationship and the service you provide, but Joe Schmoe down the street said he'll design this building for half of what you want, can you come down on the fee?" we should really be prepared to reply, "Then go to Joe Schmoe down the street" and stick to our guns.

Joe Schmoe down the street can only take on so many projects at once. I recognize that there is more than one Joe around, but there's not enough to take over all of the projects that are out there.

I'll disclose that I've never been on the business end of the profession, so please recognize that I'm speaking mostly philosophically. Though, truth be told, it seems to work well for the dentists and other professions.

 

[ToadJones]

Lion06-
I'll say this and you can take it with a grain of salt and it will likely tick you off. You are worth what someone will pay you & often you can control that.

It amazes me how those in the engineering world will sit back and be paid crap....often the same wage for years. I don't stand for it. Unless you were making a hell of a lot of money for a door assembly guy, you're being taken advantage of right now.

I worked for years building houses, many of which I was the general contractor. I made more money then as well, but the up and down of the home building world (which we have all seen in recent years) drove me away. Paying for health & business insurance was also tough. I still do projects on the side and the extra $ is great.

I also suspect that those in commercial and residential design work are jipped even more.

The other part I love is being "salary" like that is some great thing...."here is a respectable salary position. Now I can ask you to work twice the hours for the same pay".
I don't go for that either.

Don't get me wrong here...I love engineering, but I'm not doing it for cheap b/c I enjoy it.

 

[Lion06]

Toad-
I hear you. I know I'm being taken advantage of right now. My company has been good to me in other ways, especially right now - going through an extremely difficult personal situation. I don't think that's a license to underpay, but I'm expecting a pretty big raise this year. We'll see how it pans out. If it doesn't, I will be seriously looking for a new job before the end of the summer.

 

[ToadJones]

Lion06-
You seem like a hell of a bright guy. I often look for your replies when I post a question on here.
Believe me, I don't like giving advice, but the way I always looked at is like this...if they wont pay me fairly it can mean one of three things:
1). They are blatantly taking advantage of me.
2). They are literally ignorant to what I should be paid.
3). They can't afford to pay me more.

All three of those are very bad signs.

I worked for a company once that literally never gave me a pay increase...even after becoming licensed. After some years I asked for a raise and got it and then I resigned anyway. I figured, if they are only going to pay me fairly after being asked to do so and that is only once every five years, well It's best I go anyway.

Some people/owners think engineers are interchangeable.
Even when they find out the hard way that they are not, their pompous egos will not let them admit it.

 

[ash060]

Regarding owners, my experience is that they have very short memories. During a project they will curse the bottom-feeding engineer all day about how their drawings are horrible, but when the next project comes along they seem to forget all about that and look at the fees.

I know this is not always the case, but I have seen it happen more than once.

Also, how do you get engineers to treat there profession like a profession. I have run across many engineers that don't have anything of an engineering library or even choose to keep up-to-date with codes and new developments which to me is part of the job. Every lawyer's office is always shown with a bunch of law books and such, yet I have come across engineers that just don't want to learn. I mean I have seen engineers that have been practicing engineering for several years that could not draw a free body diagram, and could care less about it.

I always strive to be a better engineer. If I don't know how to do something I try my hardest to figure out how to do it, but others will just avoid it and they are usually the ones that charge the lower fees. For example, I had a colleague that only knew how to design a typical isolated footing with a computer program. One day they asked for help to design a combined footing, and I asked them if they had checked one-way and punching shear on the footing. All I got was a deer-in-the-headlights stare from the person. How can something such as this be tolerated in the profession.

 

[csd72]

Toadjones,

I agree 100% with where you are coming from. Career professionals tend to get better loans, not because their jobs are more stable but because it is normal for their salaries to increase significantly over time. So even if you are getting an inflationary increase you are really not getting what you should be. This is something that some people seem to have missed.

ash060,

Yes I see exactly where you are coming from. There is more to a profession than producing the required output.

Image counts for a lot, dress like a tradesman and you may get treated like one, dress like success and...

I have worked with more than my share of out of date and incompetent engineers, not sure how they survive but they do. I do my best to avoid these types by interviewing my potential employers as much as they do me to ensure they have adequate knowledge to spot those who dont.

When someone finally has a real level of engineering competence about them we tend to push them into full time management. Good engineers often make very poor managers so providing management as the only viable career progression means that you are bound to get a lot of incompetent managers, hence the low quotes and poor quality e.t.c.

 

[idecharlotte]

"Work is done and then it's forgotten" ~Lao Tzu

I never understood why anyone cared about recognition for anything anyway. We are just as important as a doctor and plumber in that we provide a necessary service for society. Anyone that says "My services should be at least worth what this guy's services are." I think will always be unhappy. To love your work and live a comfortable life doing it is already a luxury. To expect more is just serving the ego.

http://www.idecharlotte.com

 

[csd72]

idecharlotte,

I largely agree with your philosophy, i used to get too carried away with what others earnt compared to me and that is definately the way to make yourself unhappy.

In charlotte I would not expect that the cost of living is particularly high so what you earn probably goes a lot further than in other parts of the country.

On this side of the pond, it would be hard for us to support a child if I was the only one working which is crazy for someone with a 4 year degree and 13 years experience.

you seem to have it figured out though, not sure about the no calcs thing but whatever works for you.

By the way, I like your website, and a lot of what you say is in line with what my company's philosophy is going to be (when I start it). I am hoping to shake things up a bit over here by pushing things from a different angle but I have not got my head around the best angle yet.

 

[msquared48]

csd:

I full agree with the part about the Architects getting the credit. But that is mainly for building design. With bridge design, I have seen the structurals getting the credit. Maybe you should move to Bridge engineering?

And as for the Dentists, my father-in-law was a dentist(DDS), and we had many conversations over the years relating the similarity of the structural engineering and dentistry fields. There are many, many more than you think. A dentist basically is a form of a structural engineer, just a much smaller scale, as many of the same principles are used. Not to be fececious, but the making of a "dental bridge" involves stresses, deflections, foundation analysis, knowledge of materials, adhesives, etc., etc., etc. Similar principles are used with crowns, bite balancing, root canals, dental implants, etc. He did take Chemistry, Physics, Anatomy (body structure), materials courses, Calculus, etc., many that structural engineers take. I have always been amazed at the many similarities of the professions.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[msquared48]

Oh, and regarding his dental fees, they were set, but still really low, and he did a lot of pro bono work.

Remember that dentists and other health care professionals still do may need to negotiate their rates - not with the clients, but with the Insurance csrriers. However, if the doctor or dentist does not take insurance, and does not need the business, he can set his own rates, separate from anyone but his competition.

Engineers do not have the insurance aspect though... yet.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask