The Structural Engineering Profession (Structurals/Civils only please) 9

[csd72]

In response to some questions made in the Architectural/Structural Fee Residential post I felt that this topic needed its own thread. This topic has been covered before in the more social forums but usually they get overrun with the mechanical/electrical types which, in my experience seem to have a much better deal than those of our particular profession.

I read the website of the burj dubai under design and found the following paragraph second down on the page.

"Ultimately, the honour of designing the world's tallest tower was awarded the global leader in creating ultra-tall structures, the Chicago office of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP (SOM) with Adrian Smith FAIA, RIBA, consulting design Partner. The selected design was subject to an extensive peer review program to confirm the safety and effectiveness of the structural systems."

The reason why I point this out is that the only person mentioned is an architect followed by a description of tasks that would have been carried out by structural engineers. In my brief search I found no mention of the structural engineer who was the person responsible for the design.

If we cannot get recognition for one of the greatest engineering achievements this decade then when are we going to get it? It was an engineering achievement, it was not an architectural achievement. Architecturally impressive, yes, but there are far more ground breaking architectural achievements out there. But somehow it is an architect that gets the only mention.

Is our problem that we are constantly in the shadow of architects? The only parallel I have been able to find is that of nurses to doctors even though I am not happy with the comparison.

I am a strong believer that we only have our peers to blame and that only ourselves to pull us out of this. I disagree with those who say that we just need to educate the public and all will be alright. If you could get a lawyer for $20 and hour would you offer to pay them more because they deserved it? Of course not!

I also strongly disagree with those who say that the knowledge of our profession is not as unique as those of a dentist e.t.c. To those people I say that a dentist only needs to understand teeth, gums, the effects of drugs and the effects of working with the required materials, a structural engineer needs to understand steel, concrete, aluminium, glass, timber, structural analysis, corrosion, and has training in mathematics, materials, physics, chemistry.... We often underestimate the breadth of what we have learned to get to where we are.

As far as comparing our responsibility to that of a surgeon I will quote one of my university lecturers. "a surgeon can only kill one person at once, as a civil engineer you can kill thousands of people!"

I have rambled on enough, but I am interested in hearing any comments regarding fees, the state of the profession, what to do about it and anything else that people want to air about this great but underappreciated profession.

 

[csd72]

yes, I looked up the statistics and there were something like 146 thousand dentists and 324 thousand 'civil engineers' in 2000. as there was no structural engineer category then we can only assume a portion of about 40% of the civil engineer actually being structural ones and therefore you get similar numbers.

Looks like the census is one thing istructe is more progressive on than sei as they have managed to get structural engineer in as a specific category on the recent census here in the uk.

 

[mtu1972]

I would question 40%.

Only 3 out of 105 took the structures option classes in my 1972 class at Mich. Tech.

That's not to say that some of the others did not end up doing structural work with only the basic design and analysis classes in their arsenal.

gjc

 

[csd72]

Yes, I was being generous.

so the result is that there are many more dentists that there are structural engineers rather than the other way around as some have implied.

 

[peal724]

ever visit one of the jobhunter websites devoted to $100k+ professions? I have a time or two. One word for ya: cardiologist.


csd72, don't do structural engineering for fame.

 

[a2mfk]

Aren't dentists often listed at the top of the professions with the most suicides? Honestly, I'll take the cut in pay to design buildings and not look at yucky mouths all day

This can also be a life philosophy discussion, which simply boils down to how much money do YOU NEED to be happy? We all have bills and want to provide a nice life for our families if we have them, but how much happier does more money make you? Maybe we are chasing windmills sometimes if that is what we think of first and foremost in our profession. Maybe I could go back to school and become a lawyer and end up making double, but my soul is worth more than that....

With that said, I also believe in being paid what you are worth and seeking that out is very important. Just try not to let it be the only factor, if you enjoy your job but not the money, find ways to fix that. Maybe even do a little moonlighting. Or reduce the financial demands in your personal life. How much "stuff" do Americans need to feel satisfied? I often think for many of us this is limitless, and is chasing a dream...

 

[JennyNakamura]

I think a big part of the problem is the public perception of what civil/structurals are. I don't know for certain, but I have heard that in places like India, the Philippines, Eastern Europe, and the Middle East, civil/structurals are held in as high, if not higher, esteem in the public's eye than doctors and lawyers. Osama bin Laden, Boris Yeltsin, Yasser Arafat, Hu Jintao (president of China) and a bunch of other foreign (I'm in the USA, by the way) political figures that escape me at the moment all have civil engineering degrees. How many high-profile American politicians have civil engineering degrees, or even know what it means? Until we change the public's perception of civil/structural engineering, nothing will ever change regarding pay, respect, etc. The question is, how do you change public perception?

I worked full-time in a Safeway store for 11 years at night and went-to school part time in the day to get my CE degree. When I graduated, I was making less working 60 hours a week at a small engineering firm than I did goofing around in a grocery store for 40 hours a week. That ain't right....

 

[csd72]

a star to you A2mfk,

a lesson that i learnt quite a while ago. I may complain a lot but I dont let it make me unhappy.

I always say that I would rather a job that i enjoy that pays reasonable well than one I hate that pays 20% more.

But the thing is I always feel that we are being taken advantage of.

I did an emergency facade job once where the local authority had put an improvement order on the front wall of a terrace/row house that was threatening to fall in on the street. I spent quite a few hours on this making sure that the job was as reasonable as possible so I felt a little aprehensive when I gave hime the bill of about $1200. Your the cheap ones he said, everyone one else including the building surveyor are charging me much more.

 

[ToadJones]

Okay-
This will surely offend some (here if not all).

A huge factor in pay/respect in the industry is personality type.

A strong "Type-A" guy won't hang around in a design engineer position. Strong/arrogant personalities are not common in design engineering in my experience and if one exists it is usually at the project management level. These guys are common (by no coincidence) at the higher levels and they naturally drive up the salaries at those levels.
Worker-bee type engineers are often afraid for the their futures and happy to have a job punching calculator keys and are often self-deprecating types.
The type A's with engineering degrees that have big salaries simply don't work in engineering.

 

[Lion06]

Toad-
I'm one of the calculator punchers. I've never thought of it quite that way before, but I think you're dead on the money.

 

[csd72]

Yes I agree to a certain extent, though you cant claim that all well paid professions are filled with type A personalities. Take computer programming for example.

It is just sad that you need to stop doing engineering in order to get paid in this industry. It is almost as if our profession has a lack of self respect.

 

[graybeach]

I once had a big loud just graduated former college football player working with me on a project. All I did was show him how to layout rebar and make a barlist. He quit within a week and actually left all of his books behind.

My problem is that I love to layout rebar and make barlists!

But seriously - the first step to gaining back our self respect is to stop putting in extra hours for no pay.

 

[mtu1972]

graybeach -

Amen to that. I was really taken advantage of when I was salaried and vowed to never let that happen again.

I am hourly now - but discovered last fall that I don't get paid overtime for any non-billable hours over 40. So even when I'm writing proposals or visiting potential clients that are thinking about doing a project those hours do not count. Needless to say, I make sure that I don't do much extra on "my time" within the same week.

gjc

 

[ToadJones]

graybeach-

IMO not getting paid for all hrs at a minimum of straight time is illogical/ completely unfair.

Most employers like to treat you like salaried employee when it suits them and an hourly employee when it suits them. The line between the two is hard to determine sometimes.

 

[graybeach]

I've been in that boat mtu. Maybe that's ok if there is a potential to get a bonus if you bring in work. I have also put in extra hours if I'm managing a project that's starting to tank. But crunching numbers, laying out rebar, running STAAD, etc. for free - no way.

 

[msquared48]

Now, if you were a Dentist...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[HeavyCivil]

Alright - I haven't considered my self a company man since I left construction and became 'a professional' (albeit an unlicensed one) we're complaining about society not holding us in high enough regard and clients not being willing to pay us the fees we deserve.

Now we're complaining about not getting the respect/compensation from within!? Paid for overhead - really?? Hey, if you're busting your hump until 9pm skipping the family dinner to get a proposal out, sure, you deserve recognition. Hopefully if your company gets that project and you are compensated for your work. But you guys can't honestly sit here and try to justify getting paid over 40 for overhead! Its not like the partners in most firms are lining their pockets. They're not making a dime on you when you're logging overhead, but you're costing them benefits. Sub inflationary raises? BS. Billing you out at a 3+ multiplier - BS. Paying you straight time over 40 for billable work but not overhead - hey, that's pretty good and more than most firms do.

I'm the first to complain about the industry and its poor compensation status quo, on a project level and employee, but lets not get ridiculous and expect our bosses to make money appear out of thin air. It is what it is - you're in an industry with very few windfalls and a tight profit margin. Go work for an ENR top 400 GC if you want to make get paid for overhead.

 

[Lion06]

I don't know. I see almost any work that gets done as just that.................... work that has to get done. It's not going to do itself, whether you can bill a client for it or not. That's why they have a 3+ multiplier on your salary, to cover that (among other things).

I don't know about other firms, but I know the principals at my firm are living pretty well. Living in million dollar houses (not exaggerating) and driving Mercedes/Lexus.

Additionally, when you get a big project that has an agressive schedule you know the firm isn't getting any less for the project. If anything, they're getting more as a premium to meet the aggressive schedule. They're getting paid some set amount for a much shorter period of time. That usually means (at least it has in my case) that YOU are working longer hours. So you put in 480 hours (12 weeks work) in 9 or 10 weeks. You're the only one losing out on that deal.

 

[Lion06]

Also, I think we (generally speaking, I don't mean to lump everyone together) would be a lot less disgruntled about working some extra hours for free if we were getting paid more reasonably for the hours we do get paid for. At least that's how I feel about it.

 

[csd72]

Lion06 has covered my comment exactly.

I refuse to work saturdays because I know that every other profession there would not be there if they didnt get paid for it.

I do agree though that there has to be a bit of give and take as deadlines need to be met and workflow is not easy to keep in steady 40yrs/week lots. When it is expected every week then you are just diluting an already poor hourly rate even more.

 

[Ussuri]

I have to say I dont think it is the 'profession' as such, it is more the 'industry' you work in.

When I graduated I started working for a well known firm of consulting engineers. The work was interesting, I learnt a lot and for the most part enjoyed it. However, the pay was lousy. My starting pay was low (to be expected for a graduate) but you had visibility about what your colleagues got paid.

Senior Engineers with 10-15 years experience were getting payed 10-15k more than a fresh graduate. An associate director who was happy to divulge his salary was on 21k more. From there you could see just how much you could expect to get in terms of a pay increase as you gained more experience. Not a lot.

After 6 years I changed industry. I know work as a structural engineer in Oil and Gas, typically subsea. It is chalk and cheese. The renumeration is far better. I get paid for all my overtime for instance. If, im honest the variety isn't there which means it can be less interesting but i'm not so worried about paying debts.

Im fully aware this is all down to the volume of cash available in each industry. In traditional building work I cant see that the clients are going to start to pay more money for their product. So without more money circulating I dont see how we can expect a large increase in engineers salary without a commensurate increase in cost/price somewhere else in the chain.