Somewhat of a dilemma 1

[unclesyd]

I have a ethics problem that want cost me much money but its the idea that it's happening that frost me.

About 9 months ago I was asked to assist with some manufacturing problems at a local company based on the recommendations of an old cohort who works there. I spent one day mostly in meetings and discussions concerning some of their production bottlenecks. These discussions were in line with with what was expected of me when I was contacted and I did offer some advice that would be useful in some of their problems.

They had one machining problem that was giving them a lot of costly rejects and rework and I had a pretty good idea how to resolve the problem. The resolution to their problem was a device to do a difficult machining job. I showed a conceptual drawing, not fleshed out, of a device that I had developed for another job very similar to what they were trying to accomplish. At the time I stated that I could develop a modified version, mainly size not mentioned, that should eliminate most of their problem. I also stated that it would require a more detailed agreement than the one that I was on that day. The president of the company stated that he didn't want to commit any funds for any such development at this time due to other priorities. I put the drawing back in my briefcase and went on with other topics. We had lunch in their break room and went back to the conference room. They had rearranged the chairs for an additional two people to join us. I sent them a short report and bill for my time and they were quick to pay it with no questions.

Recently I've learned through the person that originally contacted me that a local machine shop was developing the tool that I had shown in my drawing. I do a little work for the machine shop also. The president of the company was real proud in stating that his son, a senior in college had taken an idea that wouldn't work and by careful analysis made it work. Essentially all he had to do was take my drawing scan it, scale it and correct the dimensions. Since getting my initial information I have learned that his son did accomplished the work at school based on my drawing. I am 99% sure that my drawing was taken from my briefcase while at lunch and copied. Part of my dilemma lies in that my information is from inside the company and if I make a stand both of the people's jobs will be in jeopardy, big time. My source said that he questioned the origin of the idea and he was told that his son had taken something that couldn't possibly work and through a lot of hard work had got it down to size. The son also made a nice solid model with animation.

As much as I want to I probably will not pursue this as my lawyer said that without someone admitting they copied my drawing while I was at lunch it would be a he said, she said type argument. The file I had a the meeting only has that date as I had left off the title block to get a slightly larger drawing. The computer file has an origin date of 1994 modified the day before the meeting. The machine shop isn't going go against the offending company as they are a very good customer. I don't believe I'll do any work, probably not be asked, for the company.

Should I work for for the machine shop even on the offending companies job's? I have worked with them on company jobs before.

Should I inform them what went on? Right now I don't know how much they know

Should I just let the whole thing fade away?

 

[Ashereng]

The local company you say stole your idea/drawing.
As your lawyer said, without proof, it is really he said/she said.
Why would you penalise your relationship with the maching shop? They are an innocent bystander who have committed no wrong.




"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[MikeHalloran]

There was no copyright notice on the sheet the kid copied, right?

Unethical, but legal.

Forget it.

Maybe they'll call you when it needs another iteration and the kid can't do it, maybe not. Either way, life's too short to worry about stuff like that.







Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[arunmrao]

Just goes to prove that there is no free lunch. I thought unclesyd with your experience you would be worldly wise. These are cheap tricks and gimmicks adopted by large companies against individuals or individual owned companies and they have no qualms.

Lunch breaks,dinner,drinks etc are not so simple as they appear to be. Alternately if they fail in their design,the next day yyou can have them visiting your place for yet another try.

Many times in different ways it has happened to me and there is not much you could do but swear under your breath. I stop interacting with them and their business circles.

Do not fret and lose your sleep over such matters.

 

[HVACctrl]

unclesyd,
I would be livid. But then again I let little things fester inside and become more bothersome than they should.

Its hard to say what to do. Maybe one day, if the situation allows, you can candidly ask the president of the company if they copied your drawing. It would be a natural assumption based on the similarity of the parts and the fact that you left the drawing there. It shouldn't bring any suspicion onto the two insiders who brought you into the project.

Maybe by the time you have the chance to ask him you won't care anymore.

It may not sound like it right now, but people like that will get theirs one day.

Ed

http://www.engineerboards.com

 

[patdaly]

Let it go, for now.

Eventually, they will call you for more work, and at that point, simply raise the price, or lengthen out the work cycle.

Oh yea, make sure you keep your briefcase locked when you are not in it.

In the end, if you never get any more work from them, consider it a blessing, with the price paid cheap.

 

[UcfSE]

What comes around goes around. They'll need you some day, like when the kid's deal will screw something up. When they call, send them a quote or a bill that will make 'em bleed. They can pay it or keep the problem.

 

[zdas04]

I always assume that anything I say in a meeting and any notes, sketches, or detailed drawings that I do as part of a job I'm being paid for will be used in any manner that the client chooses.

It's irriataing that the client in this case is unethical enough to steal and lie, but that is only a good reason not to do business with them. This is one where you know in your heart that their process was improved through one of your ideas. That has to be enough because you're not going to get any more. If the widget is that cool maybe you can get it protected by a patent, but until that process is pending it is legal to use it.

David

 

[eddieng27]

unclesyd,
Stealing intellectual ideas/ property is a problem many engineers will face. While I am not familiar with your entire situation, it seems to me that you have occasion to "confront" the president of the company who seemingly stole your idea. You worked for them in the meeting, showed them a sketch of an item that would help them, the president turned you down in your verbal statement or "proposal" to go farther with it, and the unethical guy took your idea and developed it further. This is unconscionable !! Whether he took the sketch from your brief case or just sketched up your idea from your sketch, he stole your idea. While you had some inkling of information regarding the device from your in-company friends/ acquaintances, you also found out about the fabrication from your work with the machine shop ... use this connection as your supply of information when you speak with the company's president. I wonder if a call/ visit to the son's college professor would shed some light on where the son's original sketch/ scan came from. Maybe he plagiarized an idea for a school project, but maybe the professor would know or have an original sketch that his student used in expanding on your idea. Also, if your idea is "copywritable" and or "patentable," maybe you should procede with that angle at the same time. If you do not get satisfaction from the president, maybe the company's board would be interested in knowing that their president is unethical and a thief. Maybe the CEO would listen to your pitch about the company's use of your idea.

I would not let this go ... but maybe that's just me. Send them a bill for thousands of dollars as your fee for helping them solve thier problem.

 

[LHA]

eddieng27 beat me to the punch. If you are going to pursue this - and in your shoes, I'm not sure what I would do - the only viable course is via the sketch and the school.

The CADD files at the school probably still have the scan attached, or unattached, but still in the project files. Submit yours, along with an affidavit swearing you created it, and that you did not give permission for it's reuse. State that it has come to your attention that a student has INADVERTENTLY (as you've said, he was innocent, so you don't want to jeopardize his degree) been mislead into using it as a design template. Ask them to verify the project is based on this sketch. Assure them that you are not considering legal action against them, but wish to investigate the origins of the sketch. Who knows? They may hand you the proof. They may tell you to go pound sand. But whatever they do, it being a school, it will be both immediate and free. Then, move on either way, and you can put it to rest.

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[bvanhiel]

Before you go in guns a blazing consider:

A) Was it really your idea to sell? You said you developed the machine for a different company. Did they pay you? If so it was actually their work product that you were trying to double dip with...

B) The company paid you to consult. You identified a possible solution (which is what you got paid for) and offered to implement it for their application. They declined and implemented it on their own.

C) What if the solution you offered had been an off-the-shelf component that they decided to re-engineer rather than purchase. Would you still feel slighted?

The only undisputably shady thing I've heard is the accusation that the sketch was stolen and copied. That's pretty low. I'd want to be 100% sure before I threw that brick through the window.

-b

 

[EddyC]

Who's to say that they might not contact you again in the future to do business? Obviously you will adjust your business approach with them after what happened to protect yourself from further "theft". Don't waste your time trying to go after them. Instead of being adults, they will try to retaliate, which will do you no good. Be patient, eventually the kid will screw up and they'll come back to a real engineer (you) for guidance.

 

[IRstuff]

Dave,

One thing you might consider doing, while a bit onerous, is to institure non-disclosure agreements with your clients. Ostensibly, since this protects both parties, most companies should be amenable. This would at least make people more circumspect.

TTFN

 

[JStephen]

It's kind of hard to tell what all goes on when you just get one side of a story.

First off, I would expect that if someone that is really on the ball looked your sketch over and understood it, that probably nobody surrepticiously copied it- they wouldn't need to (assuming you haven't actually heard that it happened.)

One of the things you furnished as a part of your scope of work was an idea, a suggestion. They took that idea and developed it as they saw fit. I don't see how they were obligated to pay you to further that idea. If the item is patented or a trade secret or something of the sort, that's a bit different, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Suppose your car is acting funny. You happen to be close to the muffler shop, so you swing in there and ask one of the guys "What going on here?" He looks at it and says "It might be the head gasket. I can check that out for you for $500." That sounds awfully steep to you, so you drive on to your favorite mechanic, and have it checked out for $350. Have you wronged that first guy? You're using his idea, but not using him to perform the service he recommended. It's not an exact parallel, but seems close to me.

Anyway, what's done is done, and there's probably not a good way to make it right for you without a big hassle all the way around. I would suggest to try to use a positive approach. Next time you talk to the local company, just ask them "Were you able to use my idea for the widget? How'd it work out?" That ought to get you a straightforward answer or else a lot of hemming and hawing and runaround. If they say "Hey, it worked great, we sure owe you one for thinking of that!", you'll know they were looking at the situation a lot differently than you are.

 

[MedicineEng]

As a entrepreneurship teacher that I had puts it:
"Ideas are worthless. Everybody can have ideas. Now, if you come to me with an idea, a business plan, including a feasibility study, then, we can talk about it"...

Unless they really went to your briefcase and copied the sketch, I don't think that you have ground for complaint.

 

[IRstuff]

Our company had developed a bipolar microprocessor and spent over a year debugging it and getting it manufacturable. One of the earliest bugs was that the DTA_ACK signal was inverted and that was quickly fixed and we moved to the next problem.

In the meantime, the original designers and development manager had bailed and gone off to a startup company. It turned out that their startup was building a CMOS version of the microprocessor, which the development manager had argued against while he had still been part of our company. We were heartened and gave a big razzberry when the startup's first silicon had the identical inverted DTA_ACK signal error.

So that's one approach, you can watermark your designs by embedding some useless circuit in your design. Anyone copying your design without really understanding it will copy the useless circuit as well.

TTFN

 

[dik]

Mike... I'm not sure about the lack of formal note...

Dik

 

[MikeHalloran]

Formal note?

{ Copyright <year> <name> }

does it.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[LittleWheels]

In some countries, I understood that copyright was inherent, rather than requiring explicit statements.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I wonder how/if you could enforce such an implicit copyright, absent the author's name or mark on the document.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA