Somewhat of a dilemma 1

[unclesyd]

I have a ethics problem that want cost me much money but its the idea that it's happening that frost me.

About 9 months ago I was asked to assist with some manufacturing problems at a local company based on the recommendations of an old cohort who works there. I spent one day mostly in meetings and discussions concerning some of their production bottlenecks. These discussions were in line with with what was expected of me when I was contacted and I did offer some advice that would be useful in some of their problems.

They had one machining problem that was giving them a lot of costly rejects and rework and I had a pretty good idea how to resolve the problem. The resolution to their problem was a device to do a difficult machining job. I showed a conceptual drawing, not fleshed out, of a device that I had developed for another job very similar to what they were trying to accomplish. At the time I stated that I could develop a modified version, mainly size not mentioned, that should eliminate most of their problem. I also stated that it would require a more detailed agreement than the one that I was on that day. The president of the company stated that he didn't want to commit any funds for any such development at this time due to other priorities. I put the drawing back in my briefcase and went on with other topics. We had lunch in their break room and went back to the conference room. They had rearranged the chairs for an additional two people to join us. I sent them a short report and bill for my time and they were quick to pay it with no questions.

Recently I've learned through the person that originally contacted me that a local machine shop was developing the tool that I had shown in my drawing. I do a little work for the machine shop also. The president of the company was real proud in stating that his son, a senior in college had taken an idea that wouldn't work and by careful analysis made it work. Essentially all he had to do was take my drawing scan it, scale it and correct the dimensions. Since getting my initial information I have learned that his son did accomplished the work at school based on my drawing. I am 99% sure that my drawing was taken from my briefcase while at lunch and copied. Part of my dilemma lies in that my information is from inside the company and if I make a stand both of the people's jobs will be in jeopardy, big time. My source said that he questioned the origin of the idea and he was told that his son had taken something that couldn't possibly work and through a lot of hard work had got it down to size. The son also made a nice solid model with animation.

As much as I want to I probably will not pursue this as my lawyer said that without someone admitting they copied my drawing while I was at lunch it would be a he said, she said type argument. The file I had a the meeting only has that date as I had left off the title block to get a slightly larger drawing. The computer file has an origin date of 1994 modified the day before the meeting. The machine shop isn't going go against the offending company as they are a very good customer. I don't believe I'll do any work, probably not be asked, for the company.

Should I work for for the machine shop even on the offending companies job's? I have worked with them on company jobs before.

Should I inform them what went on? Right now I don't know how much they know

Should I just let the whole thing fade away?

 

[LittleWheels]

From vague memory, the author's name was sufficient (possibly also a date required somewhere on the document). Stating that copyright applied (as you suggested) was not required. It is getting well out of my area of knowledge though...

 

[unclesyd]

Thanks everyone for you thoughts and response to my dilemma.

I am not going to pursue it any further as it want have any resolution and hurt some innocent people.

Update

I had lunch yesterday with with the owner of the machine shop and he was telling me about trying to work with the student who was having a tool made for the company. His statement was that he is parrot, first class.

To clear up a few things.
The device was developed off any one's clock. It had been used to do one job by a mechanical contractor who was appraised of its existence by a mutual friend. The device was returned with a nice check.

My drawing was copied as it was seen by a student assistant who is dating my granddaughter. The sketch the student was using still had some witness lines on it from my drawing. The device has one extraneous hole that was carried over to student production.

I was on the clock for this company to resolve some finishing problems and nothing else. I was made aware of their machining problems by several interruptions of our meeting. The sketch was just one of many in my briefcase. In reality I was probably fishing for additional work.

As stated above I am old enough and having worked in industry for as long as I did I should have known better. The next time I go to any meeting my will have nothing in it bu the usual engineering gear, a 6" scale, plastic , half used legal pad, small change, and a pack of crackers.

Again many thanks to all.

 

[HVACctrl]

"The device was developed off any one's clock. It had been
used to do one job by a mechanical contractor who was appraised of its existence by a mutual friend. The device was returned with a nice check"

Didn't understand that statement.

Also, what are witness lines?

Thanks for the update.

Ed

http://www.engineerboards.com

 

[ewh]

Witness line are the faint lines used to layout your drafting views (right, unclesyd?).

 

[unclesyd]

I developed it on my own time at home. It was my response to a problem I had encountered at work several years before. The project and problem had went away but as you know things lurk in one's mind. The idea essentially came out of the blue, this device would do a job deemed impossible several years before. I made a simple model in the above mentioned friend's machine shop. He made made the heavier workable version that was used by the mechanical contractor for which I received check for.

Witness lines are lines that I use in CAD to aid in layout or positioning in a 2D drawing. I wrote macros that when you run macro by setting a point it draws a horizontal or vertical line at that point to the extent of the drawing size. These lines are carried on a separate layer in the drawing and can be turned on/off at will. In sketching as this drawing was I sometimes convert them to broken lines for clarity and leave a few in the printed copy. The lines in this sketch were used to locate centers of the components. There were 4 or 5 lines left on this sketch.

This practice is a carryover from using HP's ME-10 CAD System.

Before the advent of 3D drafting I had macros to set lines at any angle to use when showing different views of an object using descriptive geometry principles.

 

[unclesyd]

ewh,
Right on target. They were a must in table days and ME-10 carried on the practice.

 

[LHA]

Thanks for the update, I probably would have let it die as well.

But watch that pack of crackers. I get mighty hungry in mid-morning meetings and as they usually drag into lunchtime...and that small change will fit nicely into the soda machine in the break room, to quench my thirst after downing a pack of crackers

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[waross]

I was in a position for several years where I had more work than I could stay awake for. I fired a couple of bad customers.
One was slow paying. He had an immediate problem and asked me to leave a good customer to look at his problem. I declined.
He kept asking, so I explained,
"When I work for this customer, I will give him an invoice on Friday, and he will pay me immediately.
The last time I worked for you, I worked for two hours. I then spent six hours over the course of four weeks waiting to get paid.
I don't think that I will leave this customer to work for you."
For the other customer, too many issues, but I got a lot of work from the extended family.
At one point I was accused of theft, not because of a misunderstanding, but as an intimidation tactic. (Was I mistaken, when the same tactic had been used, clumsily, by both parents also, no. No misunderstanding, intimidation pure and simple.)
The last time this person called, I went and looked at the problem. It took about six minutes to fix.
I fixed it. I then told the customer,
"I have fixed your problem. There is no charge. Please don't call me again."
"Why not?"
I explained. The customer was furious.
To my partial surprise the extended family was amused and supported me.
It wasn't about the money. It was the principle.
If you are good at what you do and your services are in demand, the next time you have a choice of working for this customer or spending time with your family, well, your grandchildren are probably a source of great joy.
respectfully

 

[SomptingGuy]

I felt a strange mixture of pride and anger when I once saw a sketch/testcase of mine lifted from my final year university project and inserted into a well referenced technical paper - with no credit to the original author. I wonder who owns the IPR from university coursework?

 

[Ashereng]

I think university coursework is usually in the public domain.

Most university researchers publish their work. Once it is published, it is public. The most famous case? Nylon. Not patentable, and no IPR. Anyone can make nylon.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[namdac]

Next time you present an idea make your client sign confidentiality agreement. I personally had the same type of a problem. I made them sign a confidentiality agreement before the idea comes out of the briefcase.
Regards,
Namdac

 

[IRstuff]

That sort of thing happens all the time. We gave presentation to a military lab customer about possible ways of solving one of their problems.

2 yrs later, we run across a patent on our idea issued to the government assigned to the same guys we gave the briefing to.

TTFN

 

[plasgears]

This reminds me of the time that a suggestion of mine was rejected, but I later overheard the boss touting it as his idea. At least the idea found an outlet and was introduced. Bosses in scientific research regularly claim primacy on ideas originated by their people.

Whenever I wrote a patent release I co-authored with several related parties to spread the glory.

Engineers are idea men, and your good ideas will find an outlet one way or another.