What does it take to make moonlighting work? 9

[geosavvy]

I currently work at a municipality doing... well, all the things that a city engineer does. Previously I worked with a geotechnical consulting firm for 5 years.

In discussing "moonlighting" with our HR director, I was informed that our policy is not to perform any engineering work "on the side" within the county (for various reason primarily relating to the potential appearance of conflicts of interest).

I have the opportunity to do a few small jobs primarily involving things like percolation tests (and septic system design - residential), and potentially some aspects of small subdivision design such as driange studies... or even developing full construction plans for small subdivisions.

All of this work can easily be performed on nights and weekends given that I am smart enough not to take on more than can be accomodated on nights and weekends.

I guess my primary question is this: How much revenue do you generally have to generate to make it worthwhile to moonlight. I'm not sure how insurance premiums are set initially if you arent sure how much revenue you will be generating; but I'm hearing that it could costs between $5,000 and $15,000 per year just to do around $50,000 worth or work. This, of course is not to mention computer/software upkeep, printing fees, etc.

Based on what I have read in other posts, I expect 1/2 to 2/3 of the responses here will be discussing the ethical aspects of "moonlighting". I welcome posts of this nature as well.

 

[geosavvy]

RDK, y

You basically cut and paste the same post over and over again throughout these forums. I have received your message, as has everyone else one these boards. I don't know what motivates your sentiments, but whatever it is I need some in the form of a breakfast snack.

I really don't appreciate you telling me that I have to quit my job to consult on a weekend. Clearly I do not have to quit my job to do this, although that is what you would like me to do for whatever real reasons.

80% of your post is based on contrived assumptions about my potential behavior. The other 20% you are just telling me what to do as it would best suit your businees from a competitive standpoint.

If I happen to learn something reading a book at work, and I can use this information outside of work... horray for me. This is not 'stealing time' from my company. By your rationale, if I learn something on my free time that I can use at work, then I should send my boss an invoice for the time I spent learning this.

I also think you need to stop generalizing. You are making me look like some kind of an weasle, when in reality I am asking innocent questions about a legitimate proposition.

Let me ask, for example: If someone is building their home in an adjacent county and needs a percolation test performed... You are saying that I cant perform this test and write up the report on the weekend without quitting my full time job?

Or a small engineering firm is doing some subdivision plans for a nearby project (outside of the county I work in) and they ask me if I would want to do the drianage study for them... if they have 4 weeks to finish the plans, but don't want the added hassle of doing the drainage study, you're saying that I can't work on this during nights and weekends wihout quitting my full-time job?

It's fine to be cynical, but its unfair to stifle every thread on these boards becuase of your obsession.





In direct response to your comments...


"As someone who has ran a small consulting business, I think that it is unethical to moonlight in competition to small consultants."

I am sorry you feel that way.


"You have to be very careful about not using any of your employer’s resources to promote your business. If any employer’s resources are used in your side business that is unethical conduct.

For example

Looking up something at work or taking home a reference book to look it up at home.

Taking phone calls related to business at work.

Even spending time thinking about a business problem when you are supposed to be thinking about your work.

Giving out moonlighting business cards while being paid for your time (i.e. at an employer paid conference for example.)
"

I give you my word, I will not break any rules. You may sleep tonight.


"Since most business is done during normal business hours then how can you service your clients ethically while your employer is paying for those same hours for you to do your job."

Well I don't intend on taking work that would require attention during normal "businees hours". Luckily for me, I have email and voicemail at home. I appreciate your concerns regarding my potential attention to clients... but if you are convinced that I would not be able to maintain a working relationship with any client, then wouldn't this be advantageous to my competition?


"If you want to be a consultant then quit your day job, get the necessary advise spend the necessary money to hang out your own shingle and become a consultant full time."

This last sentance is an island since everything you stated above it is invalid in my specific situation. For me, there is no reason to do this.



I apologize for being snide, and for posting such a lengthy response. However, the primary reason I was compelled to start this thread was becuase you, RDK, had personally derailed every other thread on this topic.

Swertet,

I will take your advice and crunch the numbers on my own. I was posting here first in an attempt to get a ballpark idea prior to diving fully into a prospectus.

Once I get some estimates I will post the information here.

 

[BJC]

Geosavy
I agree with you. My previous post was just to point out that the politics in city and county goverments can be hazardous.
After hours it's nobodys business what you do (within reason). If you get a part time job at Home Depot nobody would say anything ( even RDK). Why sell hours at Home depot when you have more valuabe time to sell.
In additions to RDKs warningsI would add:
Don't use anything you learn on your moonlighting job in you primary place of employment.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Allow me to rephrase the warning in (in my opinion) a more appropriate manner...

Do not use "insider information" learned while working with one employee while working on jobs from another employer. Yes, it's obvious, but is often times done by accident (and in the majority of those cases the slip-up is benign).

However, feel free to use any career-related knowledge on any job, regardless of where it was learned. This could be a faster technique of inputting/calculating data, it could be a previously unknown publicly available program, a source of publicly available data, a new vendor/consultant, etc. As long as none of the above are patented by one of your employers or specifically listed as a non-disclosure in something you've signed, you should feel free to use it whenever it suits your purpose. If a coworker shows me how Excel can graph data I was previously looking at as pure numbers, I'm going to use that whenever the appropriate opportunity arises, not just at that particular job. If a client introduces me to a program I never knew about that was useful, I will purchase a copy to use on my next job.

Just because you learn something at job 'A' doesn't necessarily mean they own exclusive rights to it.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[BJC]

That last sentence should have been like this.

Don't use anything you learn on your moonlighting job in you primary place of employment <%A)}.

 

[DonPhillips]

I think letting your employer know you are moonlighting is the upfront thing to do. Nothing worse than having the CEO of the jurisdiction (mayor, administrator, city manager, etc.) have to deal with a surprise. When I was building official of my town, I did work on the side outside my jurisdiction with both my supervisor and his (city manager) aware I had a corporation.

What I do is aobut $5000 a year of billable to pay for my cell, internet, buy some toys like CAD, computers, servers, etc., and get the tools ready for the day I strike out on my own. Meantime, my expenses exceed my income and I reduce my tax liability (S-corporation).

Just something to think about.

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[dig1]

Geosavvy/RDK,

You both have great comments and as someone who did moonlighting consulting prior to starting my own consulting firm I'd like to add my comments.

I did my consulting with the permission and even encouraging of my manager (i did not work for a consulting engineer). He thought it was a great way to technically broaden myself and offered that I could use company resources (texts, codes, etc). There was no potential client conflict and he knew I would not take work on when we were busy. I actually did very little of this because it just wasn't worth it. It is difficult to seek the work out (I helped one local company w/ overflow and that was about it) and because you cannot commit to big tasks the level of work (in a technical sense) is rather boring. I eventually started my own company and am glad I did.

It can be frustrating when someone "moonlighting" who has lower overhead (many of their benefits, such as medical and disability insurance are paid by their employer plus they borrow books from work, most often with permission of their employer, etc) tries to get work. However, that is life and there is always competition so I have to deal with it and make my own advantages. Generally, they only get one or two jobs and then blow schedule because of their regular work and it balances out.

At the same time, I use an engineer who moonlights to help me with certain tasks which he is highly specialized in. He has his own software (FEA), computers, resources, etc. I make this my competitive advantage when I can. I make sure he has all his insurance, is licensed, my E&O company is aware, etc.

In otherwords, there is a definite place in the market for moonlighting consultants. They have a responsibility to upfront with their employer and their clients. At the same time, I can help my clients by utilizing moonlighting consultants too. That is good for my business and my client.

Geosavvy, getting back to your question, it really isn't all that expensive to start. E&O does not have to be terribly expensive (depends on your billings), zero payroll workers comp (if allowed in your state) plus USD1,000,000 general liability and auto won't be too bad. Most drawings can be done on AutoCad LT (<USD1,000), use a cell as your business phone, a PLLC is less than USD1,000 to start in my state, state building codes, etc. Zdas04 covers this side of it very well.

I agree that you have to be as "transparent" as possible. Let your employer and your clients know what you are doing.

Finally, if working on your own is something you think you want research it and if it looks good do it. The moonlighting thing really doesn't give you a full flavor of what it takes.

Best of luck.

 

[atlas06]

To make it worthwhile, i,e. risk and reward fully compensated, you need to charge about 3 to 4 times your normal salary. $150.00/hr is worth the trouble, easily achievable if you are experienced.

Don't take any assignment by the hour.

Put aside additional time for site visits, when following through during construction services. You will need official time OFF from work to address a field issue during business hours. That means that your vacation time at your normal job will erode quickly. I found that field surveys are my worst enemies in moonlighting. I had to use a week of unpaid vacation time last year.

If you stamp anything, you should charge $100.00+/hr plus multiplier, just like a company would do. I'd say that if you use licensed software, you are no longer a moonlighter, you are a business.

Go for it, the money is really good. But be warned, if you do more that 12 hours/week, you will be burned quickly. Boy, that extra money saves a lot of problems, no more worries about high childcare costs, high car payments while driving a new car, etc..

I never agreed with RDK, but I must say that he is right is some ways, that at one time or another, you will use your normal time at the office tending to your own business (answering the cell phone, checking personnal e-mails, setting up appointments, etc.). On the other hand, I used experience gained from moonlighting to apply on my daily job, which benfits the boss.

 

[EddyC]

I know of a rather good engineer who is moonlighting from his day job. I approached him with a potential project that required expertise that my employer didn't have, but that he had. Although I had confidence in his skills, I doubted those of his employer. Unfortunately, it appeared that the time & schedule demands of the potential project were greater than what a moonlighter could provide. We had to subcontract the job to another formal company. I offer this as an example of the potential difficulties with moonlighting.

 

[geosavvy]

Thanks for all of the replies. I certainly understand that big projects could never receive the attention that the should during 'off hours'.

Once again, my itentions were more for things like percolations tests for indivisual homeowners, small drainage studies subbed out from the primary civil, or any other various smaller tasks subbed out from a bigger firm... or other work generated from private individuals.

I know when I worked in geotechnical consulting, we kept a couple of phone numbers on hand of outside engineers that would take small residential work that we were unwilling to do.

There's always someone who needs a footing inspeciton report for an addition, or a percolation test report for a septic system. My goal was to determine if it would be feasible to provide any of these services on the weekends.

Thanks again for all of the advice. I found it to be very useful.

 

[tuggertoo]

Our firm does not strictly prohibit moonlighting, because as many of you have said, what you want to do on your time is your business. What does affect your employer is how much time you spend during your regular business day working on your "side jobs". When you do, you are stealing. You will end up using company computer equipment and software to design plans, office plotters, burning CD's, reference books, phone and internet service. Are you going to reimburse your employer for the expense and your unearned income? We had one guy that used our Spec-Link program to create architectural specifications for a side job. He spent 2 weeks of our time, took our money, used our software, printers and copier. He is not eligible for re-hire. His $2,500 side job cost him a salary of $105,000, 100% medical insurance for his family paid by the company,401K/profit sharing and 3 wks paid vacation per year. Go figure.

 

[msquared48]

Unless there is a specific exclusion mentioned regarding this by your employer, the only problem I could see is a possible "Conflict of Interest". Even though you may be in a smaller market than your employer, and, technically a different one, although that is an arguable point, the potential for him seeing you as a competitor is very real.

If you pursue it, do so knowing that you very well may be going out on your own. And in doing so, you may burn a bridge that may have been valuable to you. Hopefully, by that time, you will have a viable network, capable of supporting your lifestyle and that of your family. I had to do just that within one month, but had 5 years to prepare for it. It worked.

Good luck.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering