US Electrical Grid Visualization 2

[racookpe1978]

alehman (Electrical)
8 May 09 22:04

"But... I feel the greenhouse gas problem is real and that we need to be doing something about it. The best solution we have now IMO is nuclear. Other technologies such as clean coal, CO2 sequestration are also dispatchable, but deployment is probably quite some time in the future. Wind provides energy (CO2 reduction), but little dispatchable capacity."

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No. Increased CO2 is NOT a reason nor a scientific justification for ANY economic penalty on the world's economy. The (demonstrably false) claims against CO2 and the AGW propagandists notwithstanding, there is NO reason to waste time, money, resources, or power on carbon sequestration or artificially-subsidized fuel campaigns.

Net wind production is about 13 - 17% nameplate rating, and produces significant grid instabilities. No nation, no state - including Spain, Denmark, Germany, CA, and other states have successfully introduced wind power into more than an expensively subsidized advertisement for politicians and their favored companies.

Other points raised:

2) The (short) AC-DC-AC links are used to "connect" the major AC (Very high voltage) grid to each other. Within each grid, each power plant synchronizes its generators to the existing grid frequency - close to, but not exactly at 60.00 Hz. But each grid may be at slightly different frequencies from its neighbor. So, to send power from one grid to the next, its best/chea[est/most reliable to convert the power from AC1 to DC and invert it back to
AC2. Usually, relatively small amounts of power are sent across -lots of Megawatts as req'd, and under emergency or blackout conditions, so regional instability on one side of the DC connection can't get over to the good side and black it out as well.

3) Yes, DC (in theory) loses more cross-country than AC, which is why Edison/GE/DC lost to Tesla/Westinghouse/AC in the 1890's. But, today, when tens of thousands of High Volt AC are sent thousands of miles, AC reactive losses and induced frequency losses between the lines build up more and more complex resistances compared to simple DC resistance losses.

So, paradoxically, at long enough distances and at high enough DC voltages with good enough insulation methods and with the (new) extreme expenses for wider and wider AC transmission line standoff distances and right-of-ways (none of which matter enough at only a few hundred miles AC transmission distance), then, yes, DC becomes better than AC.

 

[Marmite]

Racookpe1978,
Your statement about wind generation producing grid instabilities, and no nation successfully introducing it is clearly nonsensical. Thankfully not all of us have our heads in the sand.
Many counties have a significant penetration of wind power, and just as systems can cope with variations in load, they can cope with variations in generation. Every kWh generated by a wind turbine is a kWh not generated by burning a fossil fuel. Have a look at

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/windgenerationtable/

which shows the Irish wind generation output. The Irish system is a very small system electrically which appears to be coping OK with a fairly large percentage wind power penetration.
Regards
Marmite

 

[alehman]

racookpe is arguing that there's no harm in continuing to burn fossil fuel and that clean energy in any form is not needed. A lot of people agree with him for various reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

I am no expert on the subject, and I too am not 100% convinced that manmade global warming is reality or would be a major problem.

However, I am inclined to listen the preponderance of scientists who do believe that the risk is great enough to begin making the investment in new technologies. This is obviously an investment in the future. It is expensive no doubt, and a gamble. We should not forget that such development has many ancillary benefits such as job creation and spin-off technologies that should not be completely discounted.

If manmade global warming is reality, it most likely won't be a significant problem in racookpe's lifetime. Even if the probability is low, the potential damage to humanity is so enormous that to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the risk, while we can still do something about it, is foolish IMO.

As for wind generator capacity factors - here in the central U.S., large projects typically are 30% to 35%. Less than that is hard to justify economically - even with government incentives.

Alan
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"It’s always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney

 

[Electic]

There are reliablly recorded levels of CO2 much higher than present levels. Also, "warming island" that has emerged from under the ice of Greenland as Mr. Al Gore cites in his movie, has in fact been photograghed back in the 1950's. Mr. Al Gore also wrongly states the Inuit have no word for Robin,indicating these birds are a recent addition to northern locations. I believe it is too convenient to hold one's head in the sand and believe all the lies being propagated by wishful politicians. It is tragic that citizens would rather listen to movie star and slick talkers than scientists that have dedicated their lives to delivering reliable electricity and studying climatology: that is the inconvenient truth.