Stamping drawings in construction (temporary structures) questions 3

[cepe01]

Hi everyone,

I work for a construction company and have my PE license but have never stamped any drawings. I have very limited design experience. Recently my boss asked me start stamping some small construction related design drawings such as temporary formwork (for concrete) and fall hazard arrest anchorage points.

1. Would it be unethical for me stamp drawings without serious structural design experience?

2. If something goes wrong could I potentially be in trouble for working outside area of my discipline? There is a whole depth section of the PE exam dedicated to construction but these are all "structural design" problems. However if the calculations are simple enough and I feel I am "competent" in that area it should be ok right?

3. In the case of the concrete formwork, I am being asked to change minor details of another PE's drawing and stamp it. It is small drawing showing a few details with re-usable form works.
Is this unethical? Would I have to run all the calculations again before stamping?

Thank you.

 

[canwesteng]

1. If you know what you're doing (formwork seems like construction engineering to me, the fall arrest less so), you could stamp it.
2. Have you done this work before under the supervision of a PE, or have any experience with it?
3. Not unethical, just be aware you are taking responsibility for any impact the small changes might have on the overall design.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Find out why the drawings need to be sealed. Doubt if this is required for in-house use by the construction company. Perhaps the drawings have to be submitted for review by the engineer of record. The answer to this question may lead to other questions you should ask.

If the forms are for typical slabs on grade, modest size foundations, etc., I would be ok with that.

If the forms are for tall structures (significant horizontal concrete pressure) or elevated structures (heavy concrete dead load load + construction loads)... don't do it. The loads are both high and real (not statistical probabilities such as wind or seismic). Also the consequences of failure can be dramatic.

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[JAE]

1. Would it be unethical for me stamp drawings without serious structural design experience?
[red] In most US jurisdictions/states it is up to you to determine if the design calculations you are performing are in your area of knowledge and experience. If not - then you shouldn't do it. If you are unsure - probably also should not do it. If you are confident that you know how to design a specific item/system then you can...the fear is that you may not know what you don't know. Ignorance isn't bliss.[/red]

2. If something goes wrong could I potentially be in trouble for working outside area of my discipline? There is a whole depth section of the PE exam dedicated to construction but these are all "structural design" problems. However if the calculations are simple enough and I feel I am "competent" in that area it should be ok right?
[red]Yes you could be in trouble with the engineering board governing your license if you work outside your area of discipline. Only OK per item 1 above.[/red]

3. In the case of the concrete formwork, I am being asked to change minor details of another PE's drawing and stamp it. It is small drawing showing a few details with re-usable form works.
Is this unethical? Would I have to run all the calculations again before stamping?
[red]Whatever you stamp you are indicating that it has been thoroughly designed by you or under your direct supervision. If you change a small "thing" on another PE's drawing and stamp it you are technically violating most engineering laws. You should review and probably recalculate anything on that drawing to be able to seal it. [/red]

We do construction engineering for a large national construction company and they have an in-house policy that everything they do must be peer reviewed by another engineer. It may be that in this particular case you are in that you could or should suggest that whatever you do be reviewed by another PE. That way you add to the quality assurance (and safety assurance) and you can perhaps gain in knowledge from the other PE...assuming they are qualified.

Remember that the vast majority of structural failures occur during construction.

Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376

 

[cvg]

whether you stamp it or not, if you touch it - you own it. you are liable. So if this could be a life safety issue, than hire somebody else to do it until you gain the experience necessary.

if you are registered and performing engineering work, than the work must be signed. it is not optional. "structural calculations" and "shoring design" sounds like engineering to me, but suggest that you might be able to get an opinion from the board

 

[BUGGAR]

I worked for Guy F. on the Dumbarton Bridge and Caltrans required a licensed CA Civil Engineer to "certify" (or whatever the legal words were) the falsework after erection. The falsework was designed and sealed by an Engineer in the main Atkinson office. During construction, I got to climb the towers and bang the steel forms looking for loose spots. They even bought me an aluminum bull wrench to check bolts. I was a licensed Engineer and I signed a little form afterwards but was not required to stamp anything.

 

[dik]

What was your area of work for your PE License?

Dik

 

[Lomarandil]

like JAE and Buggar, I also do construction related temporary structure design. (Sounds like JAE and I share a client with big yellow trucks).

I agree with many of the responses posted above, with one caveat. With a few exceptions, most states require you to work in an area of your "competence", not an area of your "discipline". If I took the PE with the water resources depth module, but am competent to design complex falsework, that's A-OK. (Granted, if it turns out that the falsework fails for one reason or another, you can bet I'll want proof of formal education or previous experience in structural engineering in my portfolio to fight off accusations of negligence or unethical behavior).

If you let us know what state (or country) you're working in, we may be able to steer you toward some applicable regulations.

Something that hasn't been brought up yet -- stamping any document assumes personal liability. Does your company carry engineering insurance that would protect you in the case of a liability claim? Even if you aren't at fault, you can often get tied up with legal costs required to prove that you aren't -- and that's a big burden on most people's personal finances.

 

[dik]

Lomar...:
Something that hasn't been brought up yet -- stamping any document assumes personal liability.

as CVG noted, "You don't necessarily have to seal it to be liable." In particular if you were the only qualified technical person looking at it...

Dik

 

[Lomarandil]

Sorry, you're right. I missed CVG's post.

Although reading it now, I'd argue that the nature and level of liability changes once a document is stamped.

This isn't to downplay life safety concerns -- you would never want an accident or near miss with one of your crew hanging over your head.

 

[Murec]

Did you make the drawings? Are you confident that what you stamp is right?
Here in Canada it's my responsibility to decide if what I stamp is or is not in my field of competence.

 

[Terratek]

I agree with SlideRuleEra. Find out why. This will help you assess the risk involved. Even if it's simple, with little risk to actual engineering failure, the reasons for "requiring" your seal may be enough to make you step away from it.

 

[UcfSE]

3. Look at your state's laws for the use and re-use of another engineer's work, which is what you are doing by changing a small thing and implying your acceptance of the remainder. There are cases where this could be performed without having to sign, but it all depends on the state's specific laws.

 

[djs]

Another consideration is insurance. Normal liability insurance will not cover engineering (stamped) related work. You or your company needs to have what is called Errors & Omissions insurance. If your company does not have adequate/right type of insurance, I would not stamp any drawings.