MONKEY STUDY 9

[TateJ]

This is not purely engineering related. But I see a huge knowlege base, active in this forum. I'm betting one of you can collaborate this for me...

I recall hearing about a behavior study… with monkeys (or chimps or something). In which a group of monkeys were kept in a room with a banana (or some other reward) at the top of a rope. Then when the first monkey went up the rope for the treat – the other monkeys were hosed down with cold water (or some sort of negative stimuli). Soon they learned that going for the treat was bad & stopped going for it. And they would not let any other monkey go for it either. Then one of the monkeys was replaced by a new monkey. This monkey – having not learned the behavior – went for the treat & was “attacked” by the other monkeys. Soon, this new monkey learned not to go for the treat – but, of course, didn’t know why. Then another original monkey was replaced by a new monkey. The process repeated, this time with the first new monkey also “attacking” to keep the newest one off the rope. After the newest one learned not to climb for the treat, another new monkey replaced another original monkey. Eventually, all the original monkeys were replaced by new monkeys, who had never been hosed down for climbing for the treat, but they would still never climb for it. And they would “teach” any new monkey not to climb for the treat.

So you have an interesting result… A bunch of monkeys, who say (simplified):
WE DON’T DO IT THAT WAY. WE’VE NEVER DONE IT THAT WAY.
AND IF YOU TRY TO DO IT THAT WAY, WE WILL KICK YOUR BUTT.

Anybody else ever hear of this?

My recollection (I’m sure) is not exact, but you should get the gist of the study. I’ve been trying to find a reference for it on the web, with no luck.

Windows XP / Microsoft Wireless Optical Mouse 5000
SolidWorks 2007 SP1.0 / SpaceBall 5000
Lava Lamp
www.Tate3d.com

FAQ376​

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

Sounds familiar ...I think I may have worked for a couple of companies that supplied the monkeys.

 

[0707]

Some guys inside companies have done great curriculums answering that way;

“Because that's the way it's always been around here.”

cheers

luis

 

[Laplacian]

One of the electricians where I work has a cartoon of this. The paper is old and has been shown to many people over the years. I don't know where the cartoon came from, but it states almost exactly what you stated above.

 

[moltenmetal]

You forget about the effect of the wandering animal (insert favourite type of large herd animal here for effect):

One day a drunken herdsman let an animal get loose. It wandered away and broke a trail through some tall grass, bushes etc. until it found its way to a new pasture. The herdsman sobered up, noticed the animal was missing, and found it by following the path it had broken- then led it back along the same path- despite the fact that the animal hadn't followed the direct route, who wants to break a new trail?

When others went off in search of new pasture, they followed the trail the animal and drunken herdsman had broken. Why break a new trail?

The trail became a path, then a cart-road, then a highway...

The moral of the story is: never underestimate the willingness of people to follow the route of least resistance- even when it merley appears to be the route of least resistance! Usually, that means saying no to innovation, because going the established route is not just less risky- it's EASIER.

 

[electricpete]

http://slackaliss.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-because-weve-always-done-it-that.html

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

 

[electricpete]

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/5F4A1211-EBB6-4956-9D17-2B8A85D23A55/

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

 

[TateJ]

Well... maybe it was never a "real" study afterall.
I'll have to tell my girlfriend, before she tells her boss.

Windows XP / Microsoft Wireless Optical Mouse 5000
SolidWorks 2007 SP1.0 / SpaceBall 5000
Lava Lamp
www.Tate3d.com

FAQ376​

 

[moltenmetal]

TateJ: far easier to make up a study proving what you have already concluded to be true than it is to actually carry one out! Who wants to deal with those foul-smelling monkeys anyway?!

 

[michfan]

Oh, I am so glad I read this post. It explains where I'm currently working perfectly.

I thought I was working with donkeys, but it turns out they are monkeys...

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

michfan ...

You were very close in thinking they were donkeys.
After prolonged exposure to the "We've always done it that way" mentality, the monkeys, when introduced to the workforce, do indeed turn into Stubborn Mules and ultimately, Complete Asses.

 

[michfan]

Yes, I just didn't know if I could post the "a" word and not get deleted...

but that is surely what I am working with. We are to the "complete" stage here. Definitely.

I don't want to stick around here long enough to start braying, or scratching myself...

Oh my gosh, they do that here, too. Yikes!

 

[jmw]

I worked for a company where to change a process they had to wait a couple of years for the worker to retire.
He was one of the old style "man and boy" employees: "Oive werked 'ere man and boy for over forty years and me Da afore me" (and his dad before him), and "what were good enough me Da is good enough for me; Oy don't hold with these new-fangled ideas."




JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[ScottyUK]

All the old monkeys who were evicted... I know where they are.
I call them 'colleagues'...


----------------------------------

Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

 

[Ussuri]

OK, maybe I'm missing something here.

There was a good reason the monkeys should leave the banana alone. Just because the current troop of monkeys didn't know what that reason was does that mean they should take the risk just to test it? What if taking the risk kills a monkey (maybe they replaced the water cannon with an AK47).

Surely the point here should be to ensure effective knowledge management and knowledge transfer between the monkeys. Maybe a lunch 'n' learn session with peanuts provided?

 

[csd72]

This sounds like it must have been the management training program at one of my previous workplaces.

 

[KENAT]

Ussuri, He missed the part that after a while they turned off the water so that if they had tried for the banana they wouldn't have got hosed.

I heard the story fairly recently, maybe on TV or Film but can't think where, it was Gorillas though not monkeys.

Reminds me of the story of the legacy requirement that the space shuttles boosters max dia be no more than a pair of horses rear ends.

Someone pass me a banana!

 

[aardvarkdw]

Good point Ussuri.
It sounds to me like the monkeys should have hired a group of guinea pigs to test their thoery on. Then they could have determined if it was safe for them to try it. Then they could have taken the guinea pigs results and sat on them for a couple of years and then taken credit for the research themselves...

David

 

[quark]

I think Ussuri has a good point. I see, many times, most of us(including me) using the phrase "why reinvent the wheel". Though the degree of assertion varies from case to case.

David,

Excellent post.

 

[jmw]

Risk taking is what life is about. If you don't take risks you don't progress.

Conventional wisdom would have it that the fewer parts the better and why tinker with a good design, why re-invent the wheel?
Yet the wheel has been continuously re-invented or evolving ever since it was first invented.

Take something as simple as a pair of scissors. In the old days two forged and ground blades with the handles looped out of the blades would be riveted or screwed together by the pivot.
Today most scissors have two simple blades and moulded plastic handles; more parts but lower cost.

So there is never a good reason to leave the banana alone if you like bananas. What the monkeys couldn't do was figure out how to get the banana without getting hosed. Just what the experiment actually showed I couldn't say but as a metaphor for some management attitudes, a good one. Once you've had enough of being hosed down you get out of the cage and do your own thing.

But the point is that companies get stuck in their ways and absolutely refuse to re-develop a successful product. The usual outcome is that when one of the employees get fed up with banging his head against the wall he finally goes out and sets up his own company to make it his way. It is often the individual who pushes progress, not the original company.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com