ISO 9000 of any value? 1

[qcrobert]

Hello,
As QA manager of a pressure vessel fabrication facility, I am researching the ISO 9000 & 9001 for our company and to be honest am somewhat skeptical as to its value to our company.

We already have in place the ASME U & PP stamps and NBIC R stamp certifications.

I could see where ISO certs would be beneficial for a company that makes the same "widget" every day all year round but our company produces pressure vessels, cyclones, feeders, blowers, conveyors, air handling systems for the wood products industry and are all unique "one-off" fabrications.

Could you tell me the difference in quality control systems between that of our currect certifications and that of ISO cert? Also would like to know total cost of obtaining ISO 9000 or 9001 certs.

Appreciate any information you may offer...

 

[SnTMan]

qcrobert, I have not been directly involved, but...

My company (a Code HX manufacturer) went ISO not too long ago. It was a multiyear effort complete with consultants, training, etc. Paperwork multiplied exponentially. My understanding is ISO is all about documenting the cr@p out of every thing you do. The actual QA system is little different and I cannot honestly say quality has improved noticably.

I wouldn't do it if I didn't have to.

That said, the decision may also be driven by customer demand. ISO may also offer more benefits to companies that do not have documented QA systems such as those doing Code work.

No doubt you will get other takes on this

Regards,

Mike

 

[qcrobert]

Thanks for your quick reply, Mike.

As of April 24, 2012, we completed our Team Review for renewal of our certs.

The question has come up by one of the Owners and I cringe at the thought of more paperwork!

This is definitely customer driven. We get asked if we are ISO certed by countries outside the US and I have always sastified their inquires with an uncontrolled copy of our QC Manual.

Again thanks for your frank comments.
Robert

 

[SnTMan]

qcrobert, my previous employer, a much smaller company, completely resisted going ISO, and handled said inquiries same as you do, with the QA amnual. Worked for them.

Very much a business decision IMO.

Best of luck with it.

 

[qcrobert]

Mike,
I have always valued your informative posts here.

I'm sure you're aware of the expense of maintaining ASME and NBIC authorizations. May I ask what the approx cost of your Company's ISO accredidation?

Robert

 

[SnTMan]

qcrobert, I have no information, as I said, I was not really involved, more of QC function. When I get a chance to ask someone who would know, I'll let you know.

And thank you for the compliment.

 

[micalbrch]

We are certified acc. to ISO 9000 & 9001 but we do not manufacture pressure vessels. That's about my background.

From my point of view your ASME U & PP stamps and NBIC R stamp certifications cover the technical design and manufacturing process. ISO 9000 covers more the overall quality management system (incl. management, sales etc.) of you company. You do not need ISO 9000 to make better vessels but it is more like a central theme concerning quality for the whole company.

 

[DSB123]

From my Experience the amount of paperwork for ISO 9000 is exhaustive with lots of "how to this - how to do that" documents/procedures which are never generally adhered to or followed. ISO 9000 accreditation does not mean that the Job gets done better. It just means your quality department starts to expand in order to do the necessary audits/upgrades. It was a ploy years ago to upgrade people to "Managers" after all of the Project Manager positions had been filled up. Nothing has changed - a good Company still produces good work and a bad Company still produces cr@p except that now they can provide the documentation to show how they produced the cr@p via ISO 9000 & 9001.

 

[teokal]

Dear qcrobert,

I work in a company similar to the one you work for, but in Europe, and I am the Quality Manager.
You definetely need it, if you want to sell products (of ANY kind) to European Union or other countries that have commercial "connection" with the European Union. Your ASME certification is not enough, ISO does not recognize ASME Quality System. From my experience (we have also obtained ASME stamps U, U2 and S), there are two ways:
1 - Separate parallel Quality System: two different manuals, common quality forms
2 - Base the ISO certification on your existing ASME Quality System, but beware of a lot lot lot changes to be done on some quality procedures and processes.
Cannot indicate any cost, since as far as I understood, you are located in the States, so the charges are completeley different.
Regarding the ISO 900 serie, what YOU need, is for sure ISO 9001:2008, since you manage also the procurement and design...
Please reply if you need more info; Don't be afraid of the paper amount, it is 8-10 papers more than a typical ASME certification per product, but having the ISO (which indeed is nothing serious in technical point of view) your target group expands to the whole globe - except Russia, where they need the GOST certification.
Finally, DSB123 you are VERY CORRECT

Only best result in absolutely necessary time

 

[teokal]

ISO certification process is cheaper than that of ASME Stamp - at least in Europe. For our system, the annual expenses are something like 1500 dollars (about 1100 euros). But consulting, "building" and certifying the ISO system is a long process, but having your ASME manual, will help you save time. Honestly, I could not understand how any company requires ISO certification but gets satisfied by the ASME manual... As I told you we are Pressure Vessels manufacturers, and even the last bolt has to be bought by an ISO certificate holder. The whole thing trends to be a nightmare when some company (we do it very very often) builds a P.V. based on the ISO quality system, requires ASME stamp AND PED (european union's pressure equipment directive).


Only best result in absolutely necessary time

 

[qcrobert]

Thank you all gentlemen for the your comments and assessments of ISO 9001.

About the GOST cert I am aware as we are in process of building tons of equipment headed for Russia in August.

Since 1982, we also fabricate pneumatic wood products handling equipment that is shipped to New Zealand, Australia, Brazil, Cananda, UK, Germany, incl of course thru out the USA. Through Client audits of our facility and qc system we have not been required to obtain ISO series certs.

Again thank you for your participation and enlightenment. I hope to hear from others on their point of view.

Robert

 

[MikeHalloran]

If you are fully ISO 9xxx compliant, then any literate person should be able to learn and execute any job in the company with no training beyond the time it takes to read and understand all the procedures associated with that job. ... which may actually be quite a long time.

... at least that seems to be the intent. Full employment for lawyers, I guess.


If you are not taking it seriously, e.g. operating to an unwritten set of rules that is different from the written set, the ISO auditors should detect that, and you will get the opportunity to spend even more money dragging your company back into compliance.

I can't give an exact figure for getting there, but the minimum cost has to be in the millions of USD, even for a small company. If you can't afford to burn that kind of money, or if your company's success depends on flexibility, adaptability or personal ownership of everything by everyone, ISO accreditation will kill your company.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Guest102023]

It does not cost millions for a small company, but it IS expensive and IMO a paper exercise. In fact so much paper that registrants should have to buy carbon offsets.

The situation has not been helped by some of the registration companies charging exorbitant fees but sending out kids with ZERO manufacturing experience. It is no wonder that accountants are getting into the auditing business - they are the perfect faceless paper-pushers for the job. I once observed a day-long audit where the auditor interviewed one person only and did not even get up out of his chair. At places like that, quality is what the boss says it is. [I have also worked for a major nuclear manufacturer, so I know what a real audit looks like.]

In my field it is considered the cost of doing business; every little machine shop in town has ISO9001, but does reduce their errors? Few managers even believe that QA might save them money if properly applied. I could go on, but I have REAL work to do today.