Is there more to engineering than this.? 35

[dhp78]

I graduated w/ my BSME, and have had 2 jobs since them.. But have been simmilar and quite unsatisfying.. Basicly, i have been sitting in front of a computer doing CAD design.. I have had 2 managers that had no degree, and one (current) that so belligerent that it is inpossible to converse with him...

My problem is this: I feel as if i am Stagnating. I expected to do more analytical work, and work in an envrionment where i would learn and develop skills.. This is not happening...

Am i expecting too much, or do i just keep getting myself in the wrong situation..

Here is a link to my resume, if that might offer any insight

http://www.geocities.com/dhp78us/Resume.html

 

[svanels]

"I have had 2 managers that had no degree", to me this look like you have a problem toc accept authority.
The only way out is to start your own Bussiness Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[DaveVikingPE]

1. You have a job. That is important enough.

2. When you go home at night, you are not at work; your managers aren't your friends, no?

3. You live in a nice state, New Hampshire. Enjoy it.

4. If you think you're stagnating, do something about it. Work isn't necessarily a place to learn; it is a place where you work - that's why it's called "work." Your bosses are concerned not about you learning but about making money. You can do things outside of work to build your skills, there's grad school, and always another job.

 

[jproj]

DERREK:

I think your problem lies with the type of work you are applying (interviewing) for. Not all jobs out there are CAD design jobs. I am currently designing equipment for power plants. Being a chemical engineer, I would consider my job one a mechanical engineer could easily do. I actually saw a graduate class (ME) entitled "Power Plant Design". I doubt that you would designing a power plant with CAD. When looking for that next job, you need to narrow your search and find exactly what you will be doing for the company. If you're unsure, ask the interviewer. They will be more than willing to let you know all of what the job entails.

Keep at it!

jproj

 

[RDK]

Dhp78

What do you really want to do? Do you really understand what an engineer does on the job? A lot of engineering is detail work. It doesn’t matter what field or what level of your job, the science and art of engineering is in the detail. If a lot of detail work is not for you then look for a totally different field or an engineering related area like technical sales.

Do you really want to be an engineer? If no then make the necessary changes.

If yes then realize that we all have to pay our dues. This does not happen in school but in the first few years on the job. As a civil engineer in my first job I spent (back in the dark ages before PC’s) almost 3 months calculating earth quantities on a handheld programmable calculator. Dull and mind-numbing? Yes, necessary for the project that I was assigned to? Yes. (And lot better than the graphical methods that had been in use before I introduced the programmable calculator to that office. They went out and got some higher featured calculators than my school model and produced better and more accurate quantities and other work.) The result was I was allowed to move up in the food chain into a field position.

My next assignment on the job site was to make concrete test cylinders and gather the field data necessary for the next new graduate to calculate the earth quantities. Not much more interesting but outside and on a job site. Now I can discuss surveying and concrete testing with any tech. and they respect me because they know that I’ve been there and got the scars to prove it.

Twenty years later on a large job site, I’m the construction manager. My staff had asked for a head start on the weekend and just as I was leaving the contractor told me that he had got the forms ready early and wanted to pour concrete to advance the job. Guess what I did? Made cylinders.

Did the contractor look down at me for doing grunt work? Nope, in fact we got along a lot better after that because I proved that I knew something practical rather than being just a paperwork pusher and was ready to get down and dirty to help him advance the project.

Dave Thomas of Wendy’s always said that the secret to his success was his MBA. He was not referring to the degree but his bucket and mop attitude. He even as a multi-millionaire on would if necessary grab a bucket and mop and do whatever was necessary to help out.

Had I rebelled against the grunt work, I never would have been able to advance.

To advance from the grunt work you have to do it well and with a pleasant manner. The danger is especially in a small company that you become the only one capable and willing to be a grunt and are too valuable in the short term to be allowed to advance. Since the long term is a lot of short terms you can become pigeon holed and have trouble advancing.

What you have to do is show that you can do this and are ready to move on to something more interesting and advanced.

Most engineering schools (mine included) do a poor job of teaching this. They teach you how to do the top of the profession and never tell you about all the grunt work necessary to get there.

Now for some specifics to your case.

Take a long and hard look at yourself. Are you part of the problem? (I’m not saying that you are just look and see.) You have had the same problem in two settings. Either you are contributing or just unlucky. (What about relationships outside the job with teachers and others. Does the same problem occur? If so then it’s not bad luck, its you.)

Is your attitude to the boss contributing to the conflict? Can you make the changes in the job will you have to change jobs? Job changing is not a big problem in engineering. Its an accepted way to advance, however if you had the same job in several firms with short stays at each, I’d soon pass on your resume. Longer stays and advancing work assignments would get my interest.

What was your understanding going in? Were you told that the job was CAD or were you offered something bigger?

Was the offer of something bigger dependant of performance as a CAD operator? Have you performed well enough, in your manager’s view, to be allowed to advance? Remember your manager does not see everything that you do. He rates your performance based on external clues like attitude, relationships with others and the quantity and quality of the finished product.


I see nothing really wrong with your resume, however there is nothing that really jumps out at me.

Some suggestions, avoid jargon and abbreviations. While I am not in the mechanical field I have been around long enough to know most of the jargon. Some of it on your resume was new to me. (I’m Canadian so maybe its different usage in different countries.) Look at the job boards and bookstores for help in writing a resume. There are commercial firms that specialize in resume writing. You might want to try one.

Try using a result based rather than a task based resume. I.e. not was responsible for writing Bills of Materials but I wrote the bills of materials for a $xxx project with no additional purchasing or over purchase of material thus helping the work be delivered on time and on budget.

This shows not only do you have experience on a set range of project sizes but understand the relationship between what you do and the delivery of the project and the financial implications of your work. This understanding of how your work is important and how it integrates into the company is a necessary condition for advancement. (Necessary not sufficient)

I could go on but its time to get off my soap box and back to work.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Matrix]

Hi,

If you can't deal with your superiors, you should keep the work for 3 years for helping you developing marketing and professional skills, and make your own business, doing just what you want. But be aware that instead having 2 boss you will have the whole world as boss (your expected and actual customers)

Matrix

 

[TD2K]

I think Rick's given you some excellent comments.

Couple of comments on the resume.

First, it lacks any real information on the projects (I work in the oil and gas industry so keep that in mind with my example) but if I was looking for someone I'd rather see 'worked in a 120 MBD refinery as contact engineer in the alkyalation, catalytic reforming and vacuum unit responsible for day to day operations' rather than 'worked in a refinery'. Granted, you don't want to go into too much details but you want to show what you've done and can do.

Second, fix or get rid of your objective. That is just motherhood, it would turn me off the minute I read something that broad and vague. Try and tailor it for the company and the job you are applying for, don't use 'one size fits all resume'.

Finally, get rid of the hockey information. You're being hired as an engineer, not a coach. It has no relevance to your job (I believe hobbies should only be listed if they are relevant for the job being sought and these aren't). For your first job, yes, these can be listed since you lack any other information but that's not the case today.

Good luck.

 

[RDK]

Thanks for the compliment TD2K.

I do disagree with you on the hobbies. Actually it’s more of a difference of opinion on the relevance of hobbies especially for an entry-level position where there has not been opportunities to show leadership in the workplace.

To be a referee or a coach shows some leadership skills. It shows a commitment to one’s community. It shows a well-rounded personality not just a technocrat. It shows someone who is a team player. (And this from the only non-hockey fan in Canada) These are important to me for hiring for any position whether entry level or more senior.

I do agree with you about the objective. It seams to be a fad in resumes that just won’t go away. I simply ignore them. Everyone wants to be in a position of technical and managerial excellence.|-0
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[TD2K]

Good point of view Rick on the hockey coaching, hadn't looked at it that way but you are right.

Want another star? ;-)

 

[Haf]

dhp,

Let me state up front that I am a relatively new grad with almost no experience (compared to RDK, who had some great advice in his posts), so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. On the flip side of that, let me also state that I found a great job out of school (I've been working for a little less than 1 year now), and I couldn't be much happier with my work. So here's my $0.02.

My personal answer to your specific questions: Is there more to engineering than this? YES. Are you expecting too much? NO! Do you just keep getting yourself into the wrong situation? MAYBE.

There is definitely more to mechanical engineering than sitting in front of a computer doing CAD work, or any other computer-based work (like spreadsheets or even FEA/CFD), for that matter. That's not to say that that type of work isn't valuable, or even that it can't be rewarding. Also, I wouldn't necessarily call this type of work "grunt work," as many engineers have satisfying careers doing these types of things. But it's clear you're looking for something else.

From the description above, it sounds like you're not going to get very far talking with your boss. By the way, it was asserted above that bosses only care about money and not helping their workers to learn/develop. I think that is a false statement. A good boss will encourage their employees to learn and develop throughout their careers, and realize that this helps to keep employees happy and will eventually improve the bottom line. If you're working for a boss that doesn't think this way, it may be time to jump ship. He may be interested in an employee that's willing to do the same thing throughout their entire career. OK for some, but evidently not for you.

So, given that switching jobs may be your best option, the next task would be to carefully interview for your next position. Make sure you look carefully at the specific job duties of the position you are interviewing for, and ensure that your interests coincide with those duties. Don't settle, and don't tell the employer what they want to hear just to get the offer. That's an easy trap to fall into that, in the end, hurts you the most. A lot of people take any position they can just to get their foot in the door, thinking they'll change job duties and/or advance from their initial position. This may happen, but I think it's also an easy way to set yourself up for frustration and disappointment (pardon the crude comparison, but I liken it to the woman marrying the man with bad habbits thinking he'll change after marriage).

If possible, talk to employees at the company with the same position. Ask them where they plan to be in 5/10 years, and how they plan to get there. Hopefully this will provide insight into how that company works in terms of advancement. Also, ask about training and tuition assistance. If they have detailed training options or a formal, structured tuition assistance program, that is a good sign that that company values education and career development.

Finally, if you have the chance, ask detailed and tough questions of your future boss. He/she will likely be instrumental in helping to determine your future (at least your semi-immediate future) at the company. Make sure he/she is someone you can work with, and try to determine his attitude toward his employees.

I interviewed heavily, both as an undergraduate and graduate student, and I believe the detailed way in which I handled the interviewing process helped me to land the ideal job I have today. I interviewed with plenty of companies that appeared rosy on the surface, but quickly exposed them after asking a few detailed questions. Also, I did not compromise myself in the interviewing process. I answered questions honestly, without giving too much concern to what I thought they wanted to hear. Just be patient. You have a job now, so you can afford to be choosey. The last thing you want to do is rush into a position with another company and wind up in the same situation.

One last thing: you mentioned you had hoped to do more analytical-type work. Based on this, and the description of your problem in general, it may be in your best interest to pursue a graduate degree. As I mentioned, I interviewed heavily both as a BSME and MSME, and the difference was striking. The positions I interviewed for as an MS were more interesting, challenging, and carried more responsibility with them. Most companies don't want to hire an MS/PhD do to "grunt work."

Good luck!

Haf

 

[dhp78]

Thanks everyone for responding.. The overwhelming response was unexpected, but much appreciated.. It was refreshing to receive an outside opinion without bias.. Most of the comments made a lot of sense, Some of which I expected to hear, and also some surprises.. There were also some I didn’t care for, but they were enlightening, and just might change my attitude a little bit..

Without getting into the details of the issues I have currently have, I will say my “attitude” is consistent with ALL others in my department, and throughout the rest of this rather small company.. So, I believe I just got myself into another undesirable situation.. I did take one of the first two offers I got and was not very selective thus I believe it is mostly my fault.. I just felt the “need” to be working, so I jumped on it..

Ultimately, my satisfaction is my own responsibility.. So I think I will do Dave said, and take advantage of what NH has to offer.. I think I will also take a serious look at some graduate level classes.. There is a decent engineering school (Dartmouth) up the road and I kind of miss the classroom (Can’t believe I just said that). Lastly, I plan to dress up my lame resume, and be a little more selective next time around..

I’ll be back with an update, I am sure… I just found this site and its great.. I have had many questions answered just by reading through the threads, so I am sure I will return.. * creates bookmarked*

Dhp78 (member)

 

[austim]

Hi, dhp78.

In the early stages of my career I would just NEVER have accepted a job where my supervisor was not a fully qualified engineer, capable and ready to provide advice to the younger engineers.

In fact, I reported directly to qualified professional engineers for the entire time that I was employed by others.

I have always considered that part of a senior engineer's obligations are to provide ample training opportunities (preferably on the job) for the younger members of staff. They (ie you) need every chance that they can get to develop from a college trained student to a professional engineer. From the sound of things, you are getting none of that, and I would consider that to be a real concern.

Having said that - are your CAD skills still no better than when you graduated? If they aren't, just ask yourself why. If they are, recognise that as part of your development. One of the best practical designers of temporary structures that I know spent 6 months (at his own cost) becoming very proficient with AutoCad. That 6 months was a very good investment on his part, from which he now derives real benefit.

Finally, YES, there can be much more to engineering than that. Good luck in finding your way to it.

 

[JAE]

While this is a very long thread (with great comments everybody!), I thought of one more slant that takes off on what austim just stated above.....definitely agree that your supervisor should be an engineer, preferrably licensed.

One of the things I've done in the past when interviewing prospective engineers for a position on my staff is to offer them copies of my own resume along with other key members of our staff. Basically, I tell them that even though they have left the classroom (formally) they are now about to enter another type of classroom, that being the real world of engineering.

And in any classroom, you can only learn to an extent that your "teacher" can teach so it is very important to understand what your prospective supervisor/employer's background, experience, qualifications are.

 

[RDK]

I like the idea of giving out resumes to prospective employees. It shows a lot of respect for the candidate. (Think I’ll steal this one). LOL

In an interview situation the candidate is interviewing the company as much as the company is interviewing the candidate. Its important to remember in all hiring situations, that a good fit is what you are looking for. If you give the candidate as much information as you are asking for, you will both make a better decision.

I remember interviewing as a student for my first job, one interviewer took particular pleasure in making sure that you knew that he considered all students scum and that you had to acknowledge his superiority to have a glimmer of hope at a job. After about 10 minutes of this I stood up and said that I was sorry but he had not passed the interview and I would not be working for his company. The look on his face was priceless. None of my classmates accepted employment with this company. It has since gone out of business.

I have also had the misfortune as a junior engineer of reporting to a non-engineer. That was the biggest career mistake I ever made. It’s not such a big deal now that I have too many grey hairs, but without the experience behind me it was a disaster.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[austim]

Hi, again.

I would like to stretch this thread with a little tale about giving experience to juniors. I do not claim to have done many clever things in my career, but was very proud of this.

About 20 years or so ago, the company that I worked with won a design-construct contract for the first in-situ cantilevered PSC road bridge in Australia. As the only one in our engineering division with prior experience of that particular type of bridge design, I would have liked nothing better than to do it all myself. But as the Chief Civil/Structural Engineer that would not have been entirely acceptable to my superiors (who believed that such a position should be about 90% managerial).

But... a few days after the contract award, I was due to go on a (much-needed) management training course. So I called our two most junior engineers into my office, sat them down, and the conversation was basically thus:

"As you know, we have just won the contract for Maldon Bridge. You two will be doing the bulk of the design, under my general supervision. As the designers, this division will be under close scrutiny from many others in the company; particularly from our Managing Director. You can expect him to ask about progress whenever he meets you in the lift.

As it happens, I will be away from the office for the next week. While I am away, this is how you are to go about your tasks. [here they got a brief introduction to the basics of bridge design]. If you run into any difficulties, get advice from Axxx or Bxxx. I look forward to seeing how you have progressed when I return."

The two young engineers left my office slightly stunned, but were clearly excited by the prospect of such a job which, of course, they did very well. From that start, they both went on to very successful engineering careers.

I know that I benefitted from the trust that was shown in my work by our senior staff when I was young, and I like to think that I was able to repay that in some way by showing the same trust in my juniors.

 

[WardHollowayPE]

This thread struck home with me!
I have been working as an engineer for 7 years at three diffrent companys in the New England area. The type of work I do frankly depresses me. Yes, I know its a job, but work occupies 40 hours a week of your life. If you don't enjoy it, what good is life. I hate the thought of all the knowledge I have going to waste. And besides I enjoy Calculas. The New England area is full of old companys that think the way they did it fifty years ago is just fine, and nothing should change. Just get your project done and ship it. These companys will enventually end up in Mexico, or some other area where labor is cheap. I am currently looking for my fourth job. I am thinking that maybe a R&D position might utilize more of my talent and energy.

You are right to be dissatified, after all your work is your life.

 

[melone]

Unfortunately, I feel very sorry for people that feel that "work is your life"! Hating your job is never acceptable, but waking up every morning and thanking the heavens for the additional opportunity to leave your family and spend time with a group of people that will keep you around only as long as you are financially viable isn't all it's cracked up to be! Don't get me wrong, I am very happy where I am, but if ever given the opportunity to stop working and spend all of my time at home with my family, I would take it in a heart beat.

Now, let's look at the reality of the world today. The amount of R&D vs. "Normal" engineering positions have decreased over the past 100 years. Guess what, not everybody can be the next Thomas Edison. We need regular engineers to make the world work! If you are so unhappy with what you are doing, by all means, find a better job. However, don't be surprised if there are slim pickings. The few R&D positions that are available will be highly sought after by the best of the best. If you are one of the best, then you should have no problem landing your dream job.

However, I must warn you that in 500 years, most likely, noone will remember you for what you did at work, but they will remember what you did with your family.

Sorry for the rant, and I hope I haven't offended anybody!

 

[WardHollowayPE]

Sure I would love to quit my job and stay at home. But I can't, I won't have a home if I did. But if I had enough to quit, I'm sure life would not seem complete.
If you work 40hrs a week and sleep 8hrs a day, work will account for 1/3 of your "working" life. (Vacations my affect this number.) So I figure you better enjoy what you do. If your main objective for going to work every morning, is that pay check you bring home, then you are not really contibuting anything to your company, just labor. Just like a monkey turning wheel for a banana.
I forgot who quoted this.
WIMP = Where Is My Paycheck
I hpoe "I" din't offend anyone!

 

[melone]

Actually, you couldn't be any more wrong! The best employees understand the grand scheme of things. If you wish to turn a blind eye on the reality of the world, then it is your right, but please don't insinuate (sp?), that just b/c I understand that the time I spend with my family is immeasurably more value than any time that I can spend at work! If you do not take a step back and realize this, then you will spend an eternity dissatisfied, and never fully fulfilled. I wish nothing but the best for you and your future career path, but try to take a step back and look at the big picture. You should work to live, and NOT live to work!!!

Good luck and please keep us posted.

BTW, I can assure you that this monkey can turn the wheel better than most, and I earn more than my fair share of bananas!

 

[miner00]

I just wanted to chime in agreement with melone. It is an unpopular stance today, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I am a second year engineer and I generally work around 50 hour weeks (haven't seen a 40 since I got here). If I was really ambitious, I could easily find enough work to make that 60 or 70 hours weeks to the pleasure of those above me.

Life is too short to spend all of your time worrying about work. Engineers are paid well because of the time/effort it took to get the degree and because of their professionalism and thoroughness in completing their work. It should not be necessary to devote your entire life to the company. (If you listen closely, you can hear "16 Tons" playing in the background.)

I enjoy my work and I take a lot of pride and ownership in what I do, but you have to be able to say enough is enough. As much as I enjoy being an engineer and would miss it if I just quit, I would love to be able to spend more time at home.

Just my two-cents (maybe only worth 1.5)