Insufficient detailing? 2

[AELLC]

I don't get it - (see attached)

This is high-end spec home- the floor is basically at 3 different levels because it is on a hillside - the floor slab is mostly California-style, uniform thickness post tension, and a little 4" conventional here and there.

Of course, the exterior grade varies constantly around the perimeter. So we have the foundation plan on 3 separate drawing sheets (this is only one of them), and 2 unkeyed details, both of them referring to the retaining-type schedule above.

The concrete sub - THE biggest company in the Phoenix area (and they have their own engineers, they routinely design similar projects all the time in-house, including pt slabs and basement walls)- they are saying this project is not detailed at all, and they have marked up the foundation plans with approximately 60 different locations, demanding that I "clarify" (that is the construction peoples' favorite word) every one of the 60.

Huhhhhhh. How to deal with these bozos diplomatically.

BTW, we also have a full sheet of standard post tension slab on grade details, also in these plans, which they have seen at least 200 times in the last 16 years.

 

[MikeHalloran]

You've been staring at it for what, a year?

My point is that you have a fully detailed 3D model in your head already.

Since my Vulcan Mind Meld Machine is in the Time Machine Shop awaiting repairs, I'd need quite a lot of time to begin to understand what you've provided on just the one sheet. Building a mental model that actually corresponds to yours would go faster with details keyed to specific locations.

It's not a simple plan. I'd probably ask for even more clarifications than the contractor did. ... and I don't have to bet anything on getting it all right.

"Insufficient" is perhaps a harder word than the contractor actually intended, or could have used, but the homeowner will blame you both, and sue you both, for any miscommunication that gets, er, cast in concrete.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[AELLC]

Oh we crank these things out in 2 weeks or less. The original intended owner defaulted more than a year ago, then the thing sat for a year, then all of a sudden it became a spec home with a few changes, which we cranked out in 3 days ( I don't do the drafting).

 

[AELLC]

I meant the actual production drawings which you see. The architect dinked around with it for weeks before I ever saw it. The production drawings are all drawn by a CAD jock with a lot of experience.

 

[AELLC]

Here are some more details and plan

 

[MikeHalloran]

Way before CAD, I worked with Ralph, a kid who was like a machine. He could crank out an E size drawing of anything in a day, working from sketches on napkins, scaled handwaving in the air, scraps of this and that, whatever. The result always looked beautiful.
... but you had to check it very, very carefully, because Ralph didn't understand what he was drawing, and any random smudge on a sketch would also end up in the drawing.

By which I mean no offense to your CAD jock. Good ones are hard to find. Fast ones are hard to find. Good, fast ones, are a joy to work with, and much harder to find.

... but it follows that if he can whip out five pages of plans in a couple of days, it couldn't take him more than a couple more days to make the plans so detailed that even I could follow them.
... and IMHO that's cheap insurance.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[JStephen]

First off, if the Phoenix bozos have their own engineers, and those engineers peruse this website, you've pretty much lost your chance to deal with them diplomatically.

Do you think the detail actually IS lacking, and expect their engineers to design whatever is lacking in your design? Or do you think the detail is there and they just aren't seeing it?

We work with a lot of different engineers. Some of them don't much care how you do things, and they can give us some pretty vague plans and we can get the job done. Some of them are very picky. If they're picky but vague, you can expect they will get a LOT of questions coming in.

 

[AELLC]

The detail is there, they are just being lazy or using my drawings as an excuse for their not keeping to the schedule.

I take it back, they are not bozos. They probably refer to me as worse because I have had previous run-ins with them, but I don't care what they call me.

Here is some more drawing.

We have produced many similar houses for 12 years without hearing this before.

 

[AELLC]

The TOW elevations keep stepping. It is a hillside home.

 

[AELLC]

"2) the architectural components are still on the drawing. If you are specifying post-tensioning in a slab why are you showing the door above? Also... all of the line weights (structural and architectural) look to be the same.

I think it is more of a case of too much stuff not needed on the plan and not enough stuff that the contractor needs to prepare and place concrete. Too busy on the eyes. "


It is much easier to read when the plans are full-size.
Every style of the drawings is the long-established policy of the drafting dept, it is just how they do things. I like it, and it is better drafting than my other clients.

I will mention the x/y baseline system to them (my client)

 

[AELLC]

Perhaps if the pt tendons are drawn in gray-line, that would help a LOT.

 

[AELLC]

A lot of archi stuff relates to structural fdn issues, such as helping to locate hold downs.

A lot is unneeded, but they would have to study all that and take the time to assign different layers and freeze, all that CAD stuff. It take time and these guys are really tired from working so much in the past few years after things recovered from the mortgage meltdown.

 

[AELLC]

Some of the Archi stuff helps me when I am redlining my stuff to be drawn up. They (client) usually give me a 11x17 printed sheets, but in this case they gave me full size sheets to redline since it was so complicated.

 

[AELLC]

" but it follows that if he can whip out five pages of plans in a couple of days, it couldn't take him more than a couple more days to make the plans so detailed that even I could follow them. "


It was more like 2 or 3 weeks. I don't know how many days he was setting up the sheets for me to redline.
We agreed at the time to not detail this intensely because it would drag on for at least one more week, and every job is monitored for hours expended, something like ratio of hours divided by sq. ft. of plan.

The same guy has to produce every single production drawing sheet: the complete Archi sheets, the Struct, the Mech and Plumb, the Elec, and the site plan but not with any of the Civil site info - that is done outside by a Civil PE.

So you can see it is a huge task, and should not be attempted by pretenders.

 

[AELLC]

Also, I recall typical Mech dtls on the Mech sheets of large comml projects I have worked on.
Most were very generic and not keyed.

My reasoning is the same. These builders have done this for decades, they have always used this clients' standard details, so why all of a suddne they don't understand how to put generic unkeyed details where they actually occur?

 

[ztengguy]

After posting all this, whats the question? Just give them the answers they want, so it can be built, and not get into a pissing contest over who can read drawings better. The info might be all there, just sometimes its not clear, or things can be contradictory.

Give them the info, move onto the next project, and be a bit more conscious of the info if they will be working on it next time. Not all engineers are as smart (or appear to be as smart) as the next engineer.

If these things are 'cranked out', I can see how things could be confusing.

 

[JStephen]

Builders that have done things for decades have been known to hire new people on occasion, so it's possible you're dealing with different people.

Sometimes issues like this come up where people have been burned in the past. If they were working off the same type of drawings and had a bunch of re-do as a result, or bid the cheaper option and had to build it with the more expensive option, you can expect a lot of questions.

I recall a quote from some time back that said "When you do your drawings, remember, the project will be built by the guy that spells 'dirt' with an 'E'"

 

[MikeHalloran]

...they would have to study all that and take the time to assign different layers and freeze, all that CAD stuff. It take time and these guys are really tired from working so much in the past few years...

The incremental cost would be small if you had a coherent standard layer set, and drew each object on the appropriate layer in the first place.

Perhaps your guys are 'fast' because they draw everything in Color0 on Layer0. Say 'hi' to Ralph.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[dcarr82775]

It will take some time, but if the info is on your plans, write a little response pointing out where they can find the requested info for each and every item. That throws it back on them to actually read the drawings, makes them look not too smart, and helps let other parties like the owner be aware of that. If you write it really simple/basic it gets the point across without being aggressive.

Can be as simple as: Location 1: Refer to detail xx on xx as cut on sheet xx.

 

[AELLC]

@ dcarr

I think your approach is best. The concrete sub here is very aggressive with cost-cutting measures, and I don't have any respect for them. Therefore I don't want to spend more than 1 hour helping them, because they have profited at my expense in the past.