How long is an Engineer liable for the design of a structure? 4

[jloup123]

this question came up in the office today and it seemed worthy of a post after quick search returned no related answers.

I am guessing that design life would be a big consideration... But I'm not exactly sure on how/where the design life gets legally established.

there must be a statute of limitations. can't be liable for perpetuity.

Any info is appreciated.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Seems to depend on the state laws and lawyers. Some are 10 years. Not sure if this is universal or not - but I suspect it is not.

 

[sundale]

Statute of repose for civil liability on a PE's design is 5 years in Colorado, 10 years in New Mexico and...forever in Arizona. Depends greatly on your state, so ask your attorney. Statute of repose for criminal aspect of PE negligence is usually forever.

 

[DRWeig]

Had to deal with this one a while back; but, the regular eng-tips caveat applies: you're asking engineers for legal advice. Shame on you. Call a lawyer.

There's a statute of limitations and a statute of repose. In some states there are different terms -- statute of limitations for patent defects and another for latent defects.

In my state, it's 4 years for obvious stuff, starting at completion. Time re-starts, though, when defect is first noticed and documented. Hidden stuff is 10 years, and time does not re-start.

Your state may vary. Call your lawyer.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[rbalex]

Another to ask (although I agree you need legal counsel) is your liability insurance carrier. Your lawyer has no direct liability - the insurance carrier does. If you have no insurance or employer indemnificaction, you have a big problem no matter what state you're in.

 

[JedClampett]

I believe they dinged the original design firm for the I35W Bidge in Minnesota. And that was built in 1967. It's still being litigated, but it's costing some one a lot of lawyer time.
I think that once the magic word of negligence is used, all bets are off as far as time.
When I first saw your question, I thought you meant liable with regards to answering questions. We answer questions for free anything we've designed ever (almost 80 years), although I very seldom get a question on a structure that old.

 

[Ron]

Had to deal with this one a while back; but, the regular eng-tips caveat applies: you're asking engineers for legal advice. Shame on you. Call a lawyer.

No. No. No.

It is an engineer's obligation to know this and asking the question in this forum is appropriate. As others have noted, use the proper terminology and ask your state board of engineers or look it up in your state laws, which are usually available online.

The overall responsibility lies in the "statue of repose" as others have noted. Be aware of the differences between the "statute of repose" and the "statute of limitation" and how each are applied...they are different, but can become intertwined. Also be aware of how your state board defines negligent practice.

In my home state, the statute of repose is 10 years (down from 15 years almost 5 years ago).

 

[hokie66]

Whatever the answer, don't count on it. As Jed pointed out, Jacobs Engineering is still involved in a lawsuit with the state of Minnesota about the design of the I35W bridge by Sverdrup and Parcel, a firm Jacobs took over. They thought they were clear because of time, but the state legislature moved the goalposts.

 

[DRWeig]

I'll stick to my guns, Ron -- but I'll respect your opinion as well.

It's OK to ask us for the answer that's in the code, or to look up the answer in the code. In my state, they're each about four lines long and easy to understand. In fact, I was taught about them in college long ago.

It's another issue to know how the codes are applied in court. Case law is the in the lawyer's realm, not readily available to us.

Or, as someone else suggested, ask the liability insurance company. That's paid for in your premium, and they should be experts...

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Nothing is ever over until the FAT LADY sings!!

 

[SKIAK]

This website has a good overview of state statutes with references to specific state statute numbers:

http://www.sdvlaw.com/state_by_state/statutes_of_repose.11.03.10.pdf

Of course, not suggesting that this should replace the advice of an expert but should get you in the right direction.

 

[MtnManBob]

Sundale, the statute of repose in colorado is 6 years with a 2 year extension if the defect is discovered in the 5th or 6th year after substantial completion. Owners are required to act within 2 years of discovering evidence of defect even if they don't know the evidence indicates defect. Be aware that substantial completion doesn't necessarily mean issuance of a C.O. Things start to get tricky if defect involves manufactured items such as bar joists, engineered wood products, etc. I agree with Ron that every engineer should know the statutes in the states they practice in but the statutes were written by lawyers and litigated by them. Only a good construction defect attorney can navigate that mess.

 

[msquared48]

Well, SKIAK's link appears to have the correct information for Washington at 6 years.

Hasn't changed any in the 30+ years I've had my license.

And as for the Minnesota legislature moving the goalposts, well, can you expect anything different from those who have the ball and make the rules? Except for change, nothing is permanent.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[peconsultant]

If you were negligent in your design, there is no limit. I work in the legal industry and have seen lawyers argue a case that appears to be a lost cause very effectively. I can't stress the importance of good document management. During the discovery period, you start to get an idea of who will win the case, and it's always the side that can tell the best story with the documents they provide. The good news is that engineers are rarely involved in these cases; it's usually the contractors. If you have complete, correct, EASY TO FOLLOW calculations that show you met the code requirements, you will be alright.

 

[controlsdude]

when the structure falls over then you will know.

 

[abusementpark]

Can someone provide an example of the type of claim that would a statute of respose would save you from?

 

[Ron]

Any claim for defective design that is past the time period of the statute of repose.

As an example, suppose you design a light-gage infill wall section with a stucco cladding and fail to consider that the limitation for stucco deflection is L/360. Further, consider that you have a statute of limitations of 4 years and a statute of repose of 10 years.

The stucco experiences deflection in its 11th year from wind loads that do not exceed the design wind loads but are higher than the building has ever experienced before. The stucco cracks excessively from the additional deflection and water intrusion from the cracks is more than the water-managed waterproofing can handle, causing interior damage.

The statute of limitation is out the window since even if not discovered in 4 years or at some point when it should have been known, it is past the statute of repose, which controls. The statute of repose has passed so design defects are out the window as well because the issue was not discovered within the time frame.

Some legal decisions have gotten around these with some smoke and mirrors, but generally that's the premise.

 

[abusementpark]

Ron,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

So does it mainly protect you from serviceability issues? What about something more serious like an undersized beam that fails/collapses?

Or what about a scenario where a building structure has performed satisfactory for years, but for whatever reason, an evaluation is performed by another engineering group that determines that some major components didn't meet code when originally designed, don't meet code now, and costly repairs are recommended due to safety concerns? What either of those clauses save the original engineer from a claim?

 

[Ron]

ab...it protects you from each of those situations, particularly the last one. If you underdesign a beam and it fails at some point past the statute of repose, they could probably still pursue you on a criminal count for negligence (violation of a statutory provision), but the statute of repose would still provide some protection and maybe complete protection. Specific questions better for an attorney.