Fake Credentials 1

[BobPE]

I was reading the paper yesterday and came across an article on a structural engineer that was giving expert testimony on a court case. He was investigated and it was determined that their degree was from a the University of Berkley, not in CA but in Erie, PA. Turns out it was a diploma mill that was shut down.

How do we begin to regulate charlatans from our business? This person obviously felt they were a structural engineer, but with no verification required, they became a structural engineer.

Should we be the mouthpiece for our ethics, or do we continue to let this occur? How can we stop it?


I felt this was an interesting topic for discussion...

Bob

 

[patdaly]

Bob, was this person a PE? If not, then there are laws to prosecute. If so, I would assume the man qualified.
Not too much else to discuss as the practice of structural engineering is well regulated.

 

[BobPE]

patdaly, evidently this person was not a PE as he could not qualify for the exam, so that part of the process worked. I do not understand how this person got on the stand though...That part was not discussed, nor was how the person was cought.

Can we assume that if the person needed a fake degee (a BS in Structural Engineering) from a school that is being prosecuted by the state of PA for being a diploma mill, they are qualified. that is the scarey part, evidently people did.

I would agree with you that there should be nothing at all to discuss but, are we going to support diploma mill engineering degrees? Is that ethical?

Bob

 

[vooter]

I would blame the cynical lawyer who hired this expert; he probably figured that no one would know the difference. If someone's from "Berkeley," I assume they went to school at the University of California at Berkeley -and there's a good chance they're a communist! There's a "Berkeley Business College" in Spain. The "University of Berkeley" is an online diploma mill, though they're apparently somewhere in Arizona. "Berklee College" is, I think, a music school or somesuch.

Patdaly is correct regarding concern over the person's license; you don't have to have a degree to get the PE - though it probably makes things easier.

If the main credential of the expert was where he went to school, how much of an expert can he be, anyway?

 

[EddyC]

One of my employer's clients has a whole group of "engineers" working for them on projects that we collaborate on. These folks get to testify as "experts" at town zoning meetings. The various towns seem to accept their credentials without much question. I told one of these "engineers" that according to the laws of New Jersey (where he was testifying) he is not legally an engineer because he is not a PE (This is the law in New Jersey, which I have verified). I warned him that he could be fined if someone at the meeting looks into his credentials and reports him. If I am ever at a town meeting as a member of the general public, I would be the one reporting him.

My employer has a lot of 3rd world foreign nationals as his rank-and-file staff. One day he walked up to one of them and told him that he received a resume from someone. He asked him: "Have you heard of this school? Its in your country." This was the methodology he used to determine if he should hire this person. So much for formal verification of this person's credentials. And anyhow, credentials from 3rd world countries can be forged easily by paying a small fee.

Now let me speak as a member of the general public. I am sitting in my office on the 2nd floor of an office building. I am wondering if this building was really designed by an engineer or did the engineer-of-record have the building designed by some subordinate with unverifiable credentials that was willing to work for cheap? This makes a case for universal licensing.

 

[TheTick]

In the US, PE is regulated by states. Wisconsin has a path for obtaining a PE with no degree, but not all states have such a provision.

No matter what, one must pass the test and meet experience requirements.

 

[JAE]

EddyC - what do you mean by "universal licensing"? I don't see how that would make any difference.

BobPE - lawyers putting people with questionable credentials is probably nothing new. The practice of law in casework is a wild and wooly business where lots of tricks and questionable practices takes place. Usually, the checks and balances are provided by the judges, opposing attorneys, and the bar.

 

[EddyC]

JAE,

Licensed engineers are increasing rubber stamping the work of their unlicensed subordinates, basically defeating the purpose of the PE. If all engineers are licensed then the public will be better protected from this situation because every engineer will be a PE.

 

[Rich2001]

Degree mills are very common. Two sources that you can check

State of Michigan list of unacceptable degree suppliers:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf

State of Oregon Office of Degree Authorization - Unaccredited Colleges

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

Please note that the states do not have have the time nor money to do a complete job of investigation. Some schools may be missing or incorrect information my be presented.

For a small fee ($200-$300) an US Credential Evaluators can evaluate the degree and school. aA few of thenm are AUAP (member of: American Council of Education, AACRAO. NAFSA & NAGAP), Credential Evaluation.org, Foreign Credential Evaluation & Reasearch Foundation, Academic Assessment Credential Corporation Member of: AACRAO & NAFSA) Global Education Group (Member of: AACRAO & NAFSA), CCI (Member of: AACRAO, NAFSA & EAIE.

Vita sine litteris mors est.

 

[JAE]

EddyC - OK - got it. I was thinking you were refering to a national license vs. state licenses - but avoiding plan stamping and enforcing licensing laws are a good thing.

 

[IRstuff]

Bob,

There is NOTHING you can do PREVENT this sort of thing. As I indicated before, there are lots of fake doctors, as well as fake lawyers, running around. As long as people are willing to fudge the system to get cheap labor, this will ALWAYS be the case.

Just consider the amount of enforcement and money expended on illegal immigration. The people screaming about it are the same people that patronize restaurants and other establishments that use illegal immigrants because no one else will work that cheaply. Even well-known judges have used illegal immigrants.

The fact that diploma mills exist says that it WORKS. People are too lazy or too busy to do the due diligence.



TTFN

 

[BJC]

If your a PE in California, Oregon, Washington, Iowa and probably most other states I can do a "license lookup" on the website of the state board. If your real you show up. You could be using someone elses name but that you could check our witha phone call or letter.

 

[EddyC]

If I was one of the jurors in the court case in question, I wouldn't look too highly on a non-PE giving expert testimony because I have no way of knowing what they are. But then again, because I am an engineer I will not be picked for jury duty anyway.

 

[BobPE]

some states require that a person giving expert testimony on engineering, no matter what the disipline or subject, be a licensed engineer, some do not.

I guess I am just at a loss as to what, if anything, we can do about the B..S..BS degree. It definately attacks at the heart of our profession...and sours the public against us...and allows potentially dangerous conditions to be developed right under our nose...

Is a license the answer so that someone can at least check? Do we check everyone we meet who claims to be an engineer?

I think this just adds to the mess...

bob

 

[EddyC]

Bob,

Whenever I meet someone who says they are an engineer, I look them up on the state roster of PEs. I also look up the company that they are working for to see if they have a Certificate Of Authorization. If they and/or their company is not listed, then I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

 

[stevenal]

Seems the opposing attorney wasn't doing his or her job if the lack of proper credentials wasn't found out immediately. Is the bar reviewing the attorney's credentials?

 

[BobPE]

do you report htem to the state if they are not what they say they are EddyC? Just curious...I know this seems to be a hard thing to do for us engineers....

Don't mean to upset anyone here, but lawyers are not the smartest people in the world...If we are not telling them a license is needed, then they don't seen to care...Placing our profession in their hands definately is not the answer ... do we demand that licensure boards notify attnys on a regular basis to question credentials? Is it even our duty?

Bob

 

[GMcD]

Good discussion and timely - the Provincial Association I'm a member of is floating the idea of mandatory professional continuing education. The idea is to fill out the form to show how many professional development hours we engineers have done a year as continuing education. There is some vehement opposition to this, yet I look around and the dentists have it, the doctors have it, and the lawyers have it. If Professional Engineers are to be seen as "Professional", then why so much opposition? How many other jurisdictions require compulsory professional development?

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but it is connected. Perhaps the "commodification" of engineering has led to an erosion of the perceived status of engineers in general. Is it a matter of the Engineering Associations being more diligent? Where is the enforcement?

 

[whyun]

For all your enjoyment:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/l_citeunlic.htm

$2500 appears to be one of the largest fines for practicing illegally in California. I have no idea about other states or countries.

What are the fines for illegally practicing as a doctor or lawyer? or a police officer?

 

[BobPE]

GMcD:

I have no problem with that, I will just go online and buy another diploma from University of Berkely, I always wanted a PhD in particle physics...

Lets get our house in order first, before we go trudging off fixing up a junk system....

Bob