Engine designs that have problems 22

[enginesrus]

Since the one thread I started, is headed way off topic, reason for this.
Engine designs that have problems or have had them.
I'll start with the 3 valve Triton.
This guy explains. Has data from others that deal with the same problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcN_WcGr4BU

 

[TugboatEng]

There are plenty of them in the road today with 150k+ miles and maintaining double digit resale value. The same can't be said for the Ford flathead V8. Did any even make it to 150k miles?

I think most complaints are based around the comparatively high labor costs of today. That isn't exactly an engineering problem.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Tug, I know this isn't exactly what you meant, but...

Here's the website I took this from:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174782

That being said, this item at least provides anecdotal support for your claim:

And this it the site this item was taken from:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20112

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[cranky108]

I suppose it is about cost, but then again, most long life engines are used much more than what is in your car/truck. The difference maybe that your car/truck sits most of the time, and is suddenly asked to perform.

I would still tend to think 'keep it as simple as possible, and no simpler' is better. Adding more parts to manage exhaust is not keeping it simple, and is likely a big part of the automotive issues. Also short life parts used in more modern cars, like plastics, computers, etc.

 

[CWB1]

Eh, I've owned several 3Vs and would consider another. They're one of the most popular recent engines sold, several million produced annually for two decades. Spend ~$2k to have the phasers replaced with OE parts ~150k and you're done aside from standard maintenance and annoyances.

 

[wayne440]

FCA's 5.7 hemi- a common failure is wiping off one or more cam lobes, looks like after about 80K miles you are in the "danger zone". I figure that was the reason FCA shortened their powertrain warranty from 100K to 60K miles.

 

[spsalso]

What is a phaser? In this discussion.

Would it perhaps be a cam follower? If so, why the name change?


spsalso

 

[TugboatEng]

Camshaft phasers advance and retard the timing of the cams to operate on different cycles or to alter lobe separation angle. LSA determines what rpm range the engine makes best power at. Delaying intake valve closure is key to the Miller and Atkinson cycles.

 

[spsalso]

Thank you.

spsalso

 

[SnTMan]

enginesrus. you mentioned the 3.0 Duramax in that other thread. Could you elaborate please?

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[SwinnyGG]

This guy explains. Has data from others that deal with the same problems.

How much data?

What's the real failure rate?

What's the failure rate within the warranty period?

How does this compare to historical failure rates for similar engines in similar use cases?

What's the failure rate associated with insufficient maintentance?

You don't know.

Food for thought though- Ford produced nearly 20 million 5.4L Tritons over the 20 year production run of this specific variant. 20 million. So what's the real failure rate?

 

[moon161]

The Mercedes OM616 and OM617 diesel engines lasted far longer than the California Air Resources Board would have liked. They met EPA and california emissions NOx standards in the 70's and 80's, of 2 gm/km, which is about 10x a dieselgate VW on a bad day.

 

[enginesrus]

SnTMan (Mechanical)
5 May 22 14:04
enginesrus. you mentioned the 3.0 Duramax in that other thread. Could you elaborate please?
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The use of timing chains, and a rubber (not sure of the material) belt that drives the oil pump. All at the flywheel end.
Just bad choices. Maybe lasting to the end of the warranty period. As always cutting corners and cheap/ inexpensive to build.

 

[SnTMan]

enginesrus, bear with me please. The belt I get, but timing chains are very common. What would you propose instead?

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[TugboatEng]

Timing rollers.

https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1979JBAA...90...45K

Much smoother and more precise.

 

[SnTMan]

And this used in engines as opposed to timing chains, gears, shafts etc? Again, pardon my ignorance...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[JohnRBaker]

We had a 1997 Cadillac Catera, which was basically a re-badged, pimped-out Opel Omega, imported from Germany. It was a great car in terms of handling and braking, however, it was a bit under-powered as the 'Americanized' version was 500 lbs heavier (more insulation and interior appointments) plus the automatic transmission and air conditioning. Anyway, we had it about two years when one day, as I was driving, the engine just seized-up cold, right in the middle of an intersection. Luckily, no one ran into me, but I couldn't move the car an inch, as the engine had frozen. I had AAA take it the dealer and they gave us a loaner (a big new Cadillac DeVille). It turned out that an idler pulley on the serpentine accessory belt disintegrated. It was a steel pulley, with what looked like a urethane cover on the pulley face, and this 'cover' peeled-off causing the belt to come loose. Now if that was all that had happened, it wouldn't have been a big deal, however, the overhead valve trains were driven by a timing-belt. Now this was a V6 engine and each bank of valves had it's own belt system, which was under a plastic cover which was supposed to keep them protected, however, it was open on the bottom and when that accessory belt failed, a section of it snagged one of the timing belts from under the cover causing it to break, which of course meant that one bank of valves stopped moving while the engine was still turning over. This smashed the tops of at least one piston and messed up a couple of valves (this was a four-valves per cylinder scheme). The dealer had the car for better than a month while they rebuilt the engine.

A couple of months later, we got a recall notice from GM covering this exact issue with the idler pulley. It seems that Opel had been using this design for a couple of years in Europe without any problems, but apparently after a couple of years in the hot, dry conditions of Southern California, this caused that 'urethane' cover to come loose and fall off. Now most of the time, it just caused the accessory belt to fail, but in about 10% of the cases, it ended up like what happened with our car.

Then in 2000, Cadillac decided that, even though our car had already been fixed with a properly designed idler pulley, they decided to make good on the cars that had had the seized engines, replacing our 1997 Catera with new 2000 model, at no additional cost. We drove that car for about three years, before selling it.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[TugboatEng]

Toyota, who's reputation is built on reliability, isn't doing themselves any favors rebadging a BMW as their Supra.

 

[enginesrus]

SnTMan (Mechanical)
5 May 22 23:42
enginesrus, bear with me please. The belt I get, but timing chains are very common. What would you propose instead?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll answer the question with a question.
What has been used for years to connect the camshaft to the crankshaft? It is a history lesson.
And start the study with the Fair Banks Morse OP engines, that is even more demanding of an Engine crankshaft drive connection.
Then move on to the older NT Cummins truck engines, Caterpillar truck and equipment engines, Detroit Diesel 71 Series, EMD 645 Engines, the early 50's Chevrolet 235 and before that date models, I could go on.
Yes timing chains common on I'll designed junk, not made to last, study the BMW fiasco,

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2020/bmw-timing-chain-lawsuit-settlement-reached.shtml

.
Chains stretch, and can cause OBD Codes, the fix is a huge cost, especially if valves hit pistons etc. etc..

 

[spsalso]

If you want to use timing chains on an engine that you want to last, you must choose/specify components that will deliver that.

If you want to build/sell crap, don't bother.


spsalso