DISCOVERIES, INVENTIONS & ENGINEERING

[jimbo]

Following is a section of a post by 25362. It is repeated here because it is a significant beginning to the topics to be discussed;

"Yes, I think engineering is a science. A science by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made (directly and indirectly) useful to humans in structures, machines and products.

In addition to the great enginering feats already mentioned I'll add the making of paper (2000-3000 years ago) and later on printing. These were the vehicles to convey the inherited legacy of knowledge through ages and places.

As for energy, the making of steam, steam machines and steam transportation of goods and people merit a high place in the list of engineering achievements. Steam power eased the production of electricity and electronics, which carried energy, information, ideas, light, and images everywhere."

I believe that we are to discuss different categories of "great achievements", such as;

1. Discoveries
2. Inventions
3. Engineered things

I realize that "things" is a weak word, and invite a better one.
jimbo


Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

 

[Skogsgurra]

It is perhaps a little easier if written "knowledge-ship". Is there any good olde English word that fits better?

 

[jmw]

Go back to when it was all philosophy. Science is a modern word.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

I was listening to an NPR program a few days ago, and they were doing a retrospective on the late Alistair Cooke - like me, a naturalized expatriate. They had a recording of a phone-in program from back in the sixties where an English guy phoned in and said Americans were ruining the English language .. blah blah blah etc. And Cooke replied that a lot of people don't realize how many words Americans have invented - words like "awful" and "scientist" for example (and a bunch of others I that can't remember). Assuming he was right about "scientist", and he usually was right, that may account for why Americans use the term a little more broadly than I think other English speakers do.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Makes a lot of sense to me, Muffin.

 

[jimbo]

I am glad we got off the topic of "software engineering", because I believe that I will NEVER comprehend how anyone can "engineer" software.
jimbo


Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

jimbo : You don't think it's engineering, and I don't think it's science (usually). I wonder what it is ? A racket, probably. Presumably, this thread is supposed to be about a wider field than thread769-94507 - ie not just engineering discoveries. Do I understand it correctly ?

 

[25362]

If I'm allowed to ask. What are medicine, biology, forensics, bionics, ergonomics, mineralogy, physics, and the like ? Are they sciences, arts, technologies, or what ? What would a university call them ?

If engineering is not a science, why then are academic degrees as B.Sc., M.S. or M.Sc. conferred to engineers ? PhD would complicate matters even more. Comments welcomed.
Is the accepted answer: chacun a son gout ?

 

[zdas04]

25362,
I am terribly language challenged so I have no idea what your "accepted answer" might be. Sorry.

My experience is that the awarding of specific degrees is a jealously guarded prerogative of university faculties that has much more to do with maintaining a pecking order than any logic. Some schools try to make it appear logical by saying a BA or MA require fewer hours than a BS or MS. I think this is simply a retrofit to a fundamental illogic.

Your question about the "sciences" is really at the heart of this discussion. If a biologist discovers a new Amazonian tree frog with an excretion that (in its unadulterated form) can cure AIDS, is that science or engineering? In either case it is a wonderful accomplishment, but what category would you place it in for this discussion?

I think many of the definitions for "engineering" above would serve, if folks would pick one and move on.

David

 

[25362]

To zdas04, sorry. The translation: everyone to his taste.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

It's all very confused and contentious. In some countries, such as the US, you can apparently patent existing DNA sequences - in some you can't.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

25362: My view would be that in fact the designation is quite logical, since when one studies engineering at university, one is actually (most of the time) not studying engineering, or even how to be an engineer. Instead, one is studying "engineering science" ie physics, chemistry etc. Many university engineering professors are not really engineers, but teachers, researchers and students of engineering science.

 

[IRstuff]

Not at my school. 6 quarters of physics, 6 quarters of chemistry, 9 quarters of math, something like 30 quarters of engineering.

TTFN

 

[EnglishMuffin]

What do you classify as "engineering"? I classify things like strength of materials and fluid mechanics, for example, not as engineering but as engineering science. The only thing I would classify as engineering would be things like projects and design exercises. But perhaps you were more fortunate than I.

 

[IRstuff]

Circuit design
Communcation system design
Logic design
Semiconductor design
Integrated circuit design
Power supply design
etc.



TTFN

 

[EnglishMuffin]

That sure is a lot of "design". You were fortunate indeed. Although I have spent my whole career as a mechanical designer, I have never had a single formal lesson in it.

 

[PSE]

In my opinion, engineering starts with science and the discovery process. The difference comes in that the engineer takes the science and makes it practical for use. The scientist will publish findings and defend/refine them if necessary but will continue to search for new discoveries. A scientist is not necessarily concerned with the practical application of a discovery.

Regards,

 

[Skogsgurra]

I do not think that this thread needs another torch, but here goes:

What do economists do? Science? It is not engineering, I am sure about that.

There are theories in economics that seem to be supported by observations and sometimes can be verified by experiments. So it could be labeled "science" - but is it?

 

[zdas04]

My (somewhat jaded) experience is that economists do much the same thing as clergy - try to make the unknowable into something concrete for the masses. I've had 12 hours of undergraduate and graduate level economics courses and came away from all of them thinking they should have been taught at Hogwarts.

David

 

[25362]

One manual I saw defines "economics" as a social science that deals chiefly with production, distribution, and consumption of goods, services, or wealth, and the theory and operation of financial systems.

Social science: the study of society, its institutions, and of individual relationships in and to society, generally regarded as including sociology, psychology, anthropology, economics, political science, and history.

 

[zdas04]

I still say (not to restart that discussion) that if it calls itself "science" in its name, then it ain't.

David