A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE .......

[C2it]

This is a bit desparate. Two questions raised today in another forum specialising in pipe stress analysis software and its applications(quoted exactly)...

Quote 1:
I am currently analysing Cargo offloading Piping for FPSO.
Which is runing around 250m with 55°C as temp I need to determine loops in this run. What are the criterias I should take into considerations.

Quote 2:
Dear All,
I have a problem of stress analysis fo a vapor return piping from of column. What are the different criterias to be considered in analysing this system.

I wonder how these individuals have found themselves in the position of being told to do the work, whilst clearly having not a clue where to start or how to execute the analysis. Have they misled their managers ? Perhaps they are afraid to ask a question in the office and thereby admit their lack of knowledge and experience ? If they pick up a few buzzwords from the site, will they go on to fumble their way through an analysis, probably without a thought about checking or verifying results ?

These are by no means isolated incidents. My concern is that there are many disasters being stored up for the future here.

 

[saplanti]

I share your concern. These are not isolated incidents, they are everywhere.

However, if you investigate their background you will find out that they are working for large international companies as a cheap labor. I can not blame them. They need to source knowledge if they do not know anything about. So, they are doing.

It is interesting that companies do not value engineers anymore; they do employ knowledgable engineer for a short time to solve immediate problems, in this short time they do expect the new graduates to be educated as well.

Believe me these kind of questions will continue for a long time. There is not much problems for companies because there is an insurance cover, in case there is, fatal or not, an incident. I guess goverments support this for the unemployment issue, and companies save from the engineering.

I hope I am not right.

Regards,

Ibrahim Demir

 

[BigInch]

C2it,

I would imagine that their managers have recently stepped up into their positons when more experienced and knowledgable staff were cut to save money and they too have little more idea, if any, of what needs to be done than these folks that make those kind of posts. At least one would hope its so and they too are really trying to learn something from somebody somewhere, but you're right, the internet isn't an appropriate engineering training school.

Questions of such a general and basic nature that they demonstrate that the OP is fishing, has no real understanding of what they are doing and could lead to "engineering" designs being attempted by untrained amatures perhaps endangering themselves, if not the general public, do nothing to advance the high quality content of Eng-Tips, and in general amount to a complete waste of time for other engineers that want to read these forums and learn from them, can be red-flagged as "inappropriate site content". I'd suggest you flag them. This site is after all a forum where less experienced, but competent engineers can hope to gain "tips" from more experienced, or engineers specifically experienced with the question at hand and (as I understand it) never was intended to substitute for engineering training school.



"The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward X-CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

 

[DrillerNic]

Or it could be a brand new graduate engineer (it's about the right time for them) being given their first assignment and panicking a little, and not wanting to ask such questions to their supervisor?

I was terrfied for most of my first 6 months at work that I might make a mistake that killed someone/ be found out as incompetent/ do something stupid.... I remember my first assessment at 6 months was to actually make decisions, rather than listing pros and cons and leaving it to the senior engineer to decide!

 

[C2it]

Big Inch, I should clarify that the questions I quoted were placed in another forum, not Eng-Tips.

 

[BigInch]

Great, because I thought they might have escaped my flags.
I think maintaining the general high quality of the questions, in addition to the general HQ of the answers of course (I admit I push that from time to time), is a big reason why Eng-Tips is so relevant. Nothing good about spending hours having to dig through a big pile of rubbish questions trying to find out if your question has already been answered and learning nothing from the digging process as well. How frustrating can it get. Here, you can learn a heck of a lot just from the digging experience alone!

We'll just have to let the other sites worry about their content, but right, I get what you're saying. Its severely concerning at the least. Makes me want to open a training school, but then they want that cheap too.

"The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward X-CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

 

[jmw]

Saplanti;

There is not much problems for companies because there is an insurance cover, in case there is, fatal or not, an incident. I guess government's support this for the unemployment issue, and companies save from the engineering.

The reality ought to be that insurance cover was subject to "reasonable care" and "due diligence" the onus would then be on the company to show they did employ.
However, you may have a point. If comapnies couldn't get away with these practices they wouldn't do it. Whether the reason this happens is as you suggest, I couldn't say. Insurance companies tend to be a law unto themselves these days and in many cases the rights and wrongs matter little compared to whether it is cheaper to settle than arbitrate.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[sspeare]

Sadly, there are some really scary questions asked in this Forum, as well as in other forums. However this Eng-Tips forum is still the best. Any designer should have reached a minimum threshold of knowledge before he/she is trusted to an important task. Unhappily, we live in the age of the "Instant Expert". I am a graduate mechanical engineer with a P.E. and 40 years experience. But I work for somebody (a non-engineer) who thinks all you need to become an instant expert on any topic is to go online, and presto, everything is at your fingertips!

A brief story: I recently attended an energy code seminar. The presenter of the seminar came across the term "enthalpy" in the text of the energy code. He didn't know the meaning of the word, so what did he do? Yes, he went online to become an instant expert. He failed to obtain any understanding of what he found online. Come on, give me a break. Engineers go to school, and work for years before they reach an appreciation of engineering properties. I could go on and on, but ... you get the idea.

 

[micalbrch]

We should move this post to one of the Trend and Strategies' forums. I bet we will see more than 50 replies within 3 days.

I agree with all that is written above. When I find a question very basic and simple for an engineer I click on OP's name to see how long he or she joins this forum. In most cases they have just logged in.

 

[DSB123]

Cit,
You forget - all you need now is access to a software package and "hey presto" you can call yourself a pipe stress engineer.Nothing between the ears but computer literate is all it takes. For example I came across a pipe stress report recently where the analyst had used 85.5% mill tolerance in the calc - the support rods were 100mm long but the pipework was moving 20mm in both horizontal directions and "all was considered acceptable". Luckily the internal pressure was negligible and the temperature change was relatively small compared with the pipe diameter. Sustained stresses were reported as being around 90% but in reality with the mill tolerance corrected were about 30%.

 

[DSB123]

Forgot to mention the work was done by a new graduate engineer who had used the software without knowing what he was doing and subsequently checked by an engineer relatively new to pipe stress analysis. The problem is that the software is so user freindly that any numptie can use it. Hence the rather silly/stupid questions that are raised.

 

[BigInch]

Hopefully checked by a new unemployment compensation applicant.

"The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward X-CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

 

[DSB123]

BigInch,
No still gainfully employed - a Staffie- whereas I'm a mercenary Contractor only here for the cash!!. Also the calcs indicated that 2"nb pipe has an OD of 59.9mm. Not sure where you can get this "special" 2"nb piping from but the calcs have been checked!!! Scary!!!

 

[BigInch]

No! Not scary. That's great. Remember the mercenary creed. Fix, collect cash. Fix, collect cash. Fix, collect cash. ... ad infinitum!


"The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward X-CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

 

[DSB123]

BigInch,
Like your thinking. But it's the poor Contractor that gets bagged not the useless Staffy.

 

[saplanti]

As everyone mentioned the problem is very complex, but not concentrated on the person who asks this sort of stupid questions.

Unfortunately I concentrated on the international companies above because of my observations on some of them. Companies in early days had a core design engineering group, not anymore. Nowadays, in big companies, the organisations are lateral and project bases. Generally the project managers and engineering managers consantrate on the money issues and project management side as expected, mostly they do not have background on the engineering side of the job and leave everything to the engineers.

Small companies are a lot worse. They mostly do not have experienced engineers in house, they do find a consultant in case they need advice. These advices are even sometimes very questionable. They do not have verification process. Sometimes knowledgable clients ask verification process and proper QA system with audit, even CVs of engineers that will involve in the job.

In case boilers, pressure vessels and piping there is an umbrella code and its requirement for the QA system is to be used, verification and documentation etc.... If you go into structural engineering side there is nothing other than code rules for calculation and manufacturing. There is no available umbrella code what to look for about QA other than the government requirement to keep the calculation for certain period.

This goes on and on. Housing industry is the worst.

Governments ask companies for the training of employee which includes engineers in house or outside. These training hours used to teach the employee including design engineers how to input project costing program for progress, and internal seminars for company future etc... not for the person to improve himself/herself in their professions, with some exceptions.

I have only looked at the negative sides above. Isn't there any good engineering company with good engineering practices? Of course they are available, otherwise living would be hell in this World.

Kind regards,

Ibrahim Demir

 

[BigInch]

They approved him to be assigned to the project, so ...

"The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward X-CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

 

[bernoullies123]

The questions don't seem to far fetched to me. Maybe I get quoted in other forums on my questions. I think there would have been been some really good merit in the well formulated response to those questions that would benefit many, probably even the most experienced... who knows?

 

[MJCronin]

"It is interesting that companies do not value engineers anymore; they do employ knowledgable engineer for a short time to solve immediate problems, in this short time they do expect the new graduates to be educated as well."

Bravo saplanti... !!!! Bravo !!

But I would like to add that companies DO value and highly reward MBAs..!!!

It is particularly galling to note that fewer and fewer of the newly minted MBAs have any type of technical background.

And since the rewards demanded by the MBAs must always increase......there is less left for the ever smaller pool of experienced engineers.

I am glad that I am close to retirement....

My opinion only

-MJC

 

[DSB123]

MJC,
Remember the olde saying which applies to MBA's and the management that employs/remunerates them....

Bullsh!t baffles brains and I have not come across many MBA's whom are not degree qualified in the aforementioned Bull****, buzzwords and brown tongues!!!