Sanibel island causeway 10

[Frank2020]

Anyone have an opinion on time needed to rebuild/repair the causeway destroyed by Hurricane Ian? Will they nit use the little islands as anchors this time? Those were money makers for Lee County. Selfish inquiry as my mother is 96yrs old and Sanibel resident

 

[JohnRBaker]

Yes, the reports I saw noted that the average values for the homes that were built on Sanibel Island were three to four times the value of similar sized homes built on the mainland. I suspect that this holds true to all of the newer homes that were built on these so-called 'barrier islands'. The irony is that if people actually stopped and thought about what it meant to refer to these islands as 'barriers', that that should have been a big warning sign that that's someplace you did NOT want to be during a hurricane.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[EdStainless]

There have been some of these islands that have been wiped clean multiple times.
The state can't (easily) prevent you from building on your own land.
So in some places they have greatly restricted the insurance available.
Basically you can't get any coverage for the structure or contents.
You are free to build as long as you can afford to loose it all in the next storm.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[JohnRBaker]

Public officials have used eminent domain before to restrict the use of private land for a greater public good. Like not having to put first responder's lives as risk rescuing people or having to spend tax payer dollars to continuously rebuild the infrastructure needed to support these homeowners.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[hokie66]

Are you really suggesting that much of the coast of Florida and other states in Hurricane Alley should be taken by the government?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Depends on what your priorities are...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[hokie66]

Right, so your priorities are to seize the property rights of those who live along the coast. In that case, let's start with applying eminent domain in Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. It seems to me that I have heard that those cities are especially susceptible to the destructive effects of earthquakes, which require lots of "tax payer dollars" in rebuilding infrastructure.

 

[SWComposites]

no, don't bother seizing the properties, just refuse to spend taxpayer $ to replace the causeway, rebuild roads, houses, etc. If they want to set up a local improvement district to tax themselves for the rebuilding, then have at it. building on "barrier islands" is just dumb.

 

[hokie66]

Just because you don't have barrier islands and an intracoastal waterway in California just makes you envious, not a good judge of 'dumb'.

 

[JohnRBaker]

There isn't a state in the nation where you couldn't find examples of where people have consistently built houses, businesses, schools, hospitals, public works, etc in locations that are susceptible to one kind of natural threat or another. It's the nature of nature. But there are differences in the extent of the risk, the mean time between events, the cost of recovery and the alternatives that could have been utilized instead. No one will ever find a 100% 'safe haven' anywhere. They may find some that come close, but...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[dik]

You just build on these properties at your own risk to whatever codes are enacted by the AHJ, and that may include offset from high water level, and no disruption to the waterlife or 'beaches'. Seems simple enough... but financing these and insurance for these is also at your own peril. I forgot to add that if you want a bridge or whatever, you and the other inhabitants/ratepayers, pay for that, too.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

John, may I remind you of fires, earthquakes, high speed rail to nowhere, and $6.50 per gallon gas? Let's all come down off our soap boxes here.

 

[Frank2020]

Didn't mean to start a debate - just trying to understand the nuts and bolts of rebuilding a causeway: do you keep existing safe structures? Does the design need to be improved? How long to rebuild?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Tug, as I said, everywhere has it's pluses and minuses.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[TugboatEng]

To build a better structure, I think they should focus on strengthening the piers and let the road deck fail in the event of high forces. The piers are the most difficult and expensive to replace. The road deck isn't going to fail in 100% of places so let smaller manageable sections relieve the stress on the structure. Build all road sections to be modular so they can be built shoreside. Make them identical so spares can be built while tooled up for production which helps lower future costs.

 

[dik]

It's a beginning, Tug... it could get a lot more expensive in the coming years... Europe, Japan and China seem to work with high speed rail and it's a common means of transportation, and likely the way of the future. By high speed, they are talking 2x or 3x the high speed American rail (that was attempted).

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Ah the old economics 101 that nobody seems to understand. The best way to make gas more expensive is to reduce demand. Demand drives prices down. I don't understand how this isn't more understood. I accept that gas will get expensive in the future. I hope that occurs by reducing demand. However, in states like California we target supply instead with special formulations and draconian permit rules that require refineries use old brick uptakes from the turn of the last century in an earthquake zone of all places.

 

[spsalso]

And the best way to reduce demand is to make gas more expensive. Price drives demand down.


spsalso

 

[JohnRBaker]

Tug, that's not quite how it works as it's more complicated than that. First off, the law of 'supply & demand', as inferred by the name, deals with two variables, therefore there are four possible scenarios which controls the price of any commodity, of which gasoline is a classic example.

The four laws of 'supply & demand' are:

1) If the supply increases and demand stays the same, the price will go down.

2) If the supply decreases and demand stays the same, the price will go up.

3) If the supply stays the same and demand increases, the price will go up.

4) If the supply stays the same and demand decreases, the price will go down.

And of course, the holy grail is if we can get to a point where supply meets demand, price stability is achieved and eventually the price would be based on the true cost of production. Of course, there are always outside forces which can and will disrupt any stable system, usually impacting supply more often than demand, but there are exceptions. Take for example, the early days of the pandemic, when the outside forces were driving down demand.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[TugboatEng]

Nobody seems to understand that demand drives the capital investment, therefore reduces prices. If I were to try to build a Geo Metro today it would cost millions of dollars but 25 years ago the same car was only thousands of dollars due to a higher demand.

The same goes for gas. I burn more than a gallon of gas per day but drink less than a gallon of bottled water. There is certainly a higher supply of water but gas is cheaper because there is more demand which supports the higher volume infrastructure.

Electric cars are expensive because they are supply limited by lithium and heavy metals. Increasing demand with gas engine bans is going to increase the price of gas and electric vehicles. That's no good for anybody.