How far is the Smart grid Going?

[Xera]

Below is a section from a news report I get. One statement in it got my attention. "In a smaller test in Washington State from 2005 to 2007, the technology enabled utilities to communicate with smart thermostats and other equipment in homes, reducing peak electricity demand and responding to fluctuations in supply from intermittent resources."

So, the utility can change your settings and turn things on and off to meet their need?
Is this how you read this?
Where does it end?


"Can Software Patch the Ailing Power Grid?
Technology Review (10/26/11) Bullis, Kevin

A consortium providing the technology for a large-scale smart grid project says the software is nearly complete. IBM's Ron Ambrosio expects the system to be operational by this time next year. The system will power the $200 million initiative to connect the fragmented grid infrastructure across five U.S. states and 11 utilities, including 95 smaller efforts to cut power consumption and manage the delivery of electricity to homes and businesses. In a smaller test in Washington state from 2005 to 2007, the technology enabled utilities to communicate with smart thermostats and other equipment in homes, reducing peak electricity demand and responding to fluctuations in supply from intermittent resources. The researchers say that a large-scale, smart system could save billions of dollars. The project will enable utilities to take advantage of renewable energy, accommodate electric cars, store power from the grid, and establish microgrids that could survive on their own during a power outage. Ambrosio says the goal is to be able to run transmission lines at 95 percent to 97 percent capacity."

 

[YoungTurk]

Many places already have variants of this; most common are remote switches for aircon units to avoid the need for brownouts. The programs that I'm aware of are all volunteer - you let the utility install the unit and get a break on your bill.

Smart grid is a very broad concept. It could be (and will be) implemented at all levels, from distribution to industry to residential. I would bet the rollout will be top down in most places, with the dollars spent where there is capacity for larger savings.

I would be surprised to see any non-voluntary implementations, especially on the residential side. A smart grid entrepeneur who I saw speak gave the example of a smart toaster deciding to wait to make your toast; that wouldn't be a very popular toaster. I don't think there will be broad adoption on the residential level until more places have incentives in place to offset the added cost. The most likely incentive will be to vary utility rates based on time of usage in order to encourage people to move flexible usage to non-peak times as is already done in some locales. These people might be interested in appliances which allow them to turn on/off based on the cost.

 

[jmw]

Yes, absolutely.
My fear is that what will happen is that instead of whole areas browned out, they will selectively shut down appliances... kettles and electric fires, and so on.
Seems reasonable so far till you move to a "voluntary code" where users are expected to stop using high power consumption items in peak times and then penalties if they don't obey. Some unseen penalties maybe.
And it may be that rather than simply shutting down some appliances in all homes, they will be selective about which homes are shut down.
So when there is a shortage in a certain area, more appliances will be shut down in some homes and districts than others. People like Al Gore might never ever be affected... but anyone late on a payment or in a poor part of town may find themselves more selected against than others.
Smart grids and smart devices enable the provider to monitor usage patterns and not anonymously either.
Some people may think there is enough intrusion into our private lives already but intrusion plus control could be a step too far.

When does a break on your bill become a penalty for not agreeing?
One thing that the water authorities found was that when they initiated a water conservation project, it was too successful. They found that their revenue dropped. To compensate, they increased charges.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[badgerdave]

How about demand based pricing and sell an LED screen that just shows the current price of electricity? the homeowner can mount it where ever it will help them save the most!

 

[drawoh]

Xera,

How good will the network security be?

I go to Gibson Research and I run their Shields Up program. My computers pass their "True Stealth" analysis, meaning that there is no response to probes from the website. This means that my computers are fairly invisible to hackers on the internet.

I do not want my appliances to be visible on the internet. If my appliances can be run remotely from the internet, some twit will find a way to do it, and they could do significant damage. Your stove and toaster are potential fire hazards, especially if you leave stuff on burners. Your washing machine could flood the room it is sitting in. Any closed circuit cameras you have are a potential violation of your privacy.

JHG

 

[cranky108]

One advantage of smart grid, is they won't have to charge people with a service call for not paying there electric bill.

This would make prepaid electricity possible. You could have a display showing how much you have left until your lights go off.
Sort of like a parking meter (works good on moble homes too).

 

[Xera]

They are selling refrigerators that run apps now. So I would think that they would have to be on the internet or at least be capable of being connected.

http://www.geek.com/articles/gadget...rator-that-can-tweet-and-play-music-20110110/

I personally think a person can be too connected.

 

[drawoh]

cranky108,

If you ever get a chance, watch The Kid, starring Charles Chaplin and Jackie Coogan. This is a brilliant, classic movie. There are excellent quality prints and videos out there with music composed by Chaplin. Some of the non-official copies have extra scenes in them.

In addition to the movie being funny and relevant, Chaplin has a pay as you go gas meter in his apartment. No internet connection was indicated in the movie.

JHG

 

[jmw]

Stuxnet anyone?
Or its descendent Duqu?

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[JohnRBaker]

Here in SoCal we have volunteered for the 'Air Conditioning Cycling' program, for which we receive approximately $25-$30 per month (the summer months only) credit on our bill even if they never actually disable our AC unit. In the 15 years or so that we've participated in this program, I can't recall more than 2 or 3 times that we weren't able to use our AC when we wanted to and even then the 'outage' lasted only a few hours at most.

That being said, Southern California Edison did just replace (with the last few weeks) our old mechanical meter with a new 'smart' meter, but so far no additional programs have been announced or any other info other than how to read the new meter as well as some explanation of why they were implementing the program, but that's about it although one of the items was that it would be a prerequisite for future programs, which if they are introduced more details would be forthcoming.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

UG/NX Museum:

http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[jmw]

One of the things that can be determined is what devices you have running and when. This doesn't require any smart devices because each device has its own "fingerprint". An electric kettle is quite different to a TV.
With different electrical circuits, it isn't going to be difficult to identify which devices are on which circuits and selectively shut down individual circuits.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[cranky108]

The difference in the past and now with prepaid, is the internet and credit cards (debit cards). The issue was in the past, someone would have to go and retrieve the money. Now it is electronic.

Part of the problem is people want to live beyond there means, and there probally loads of reasons for this, but the over all cost is carried by all of us. By making remote turn off's of services it puts much more of the burden on those who (customers) made bad decisions.

The other side is who is deciding what you should be using when, issue. Hour by hour pricing is a better solution, but it looks like we will not be going that route (you customers are just to stupid).

 

[SnTMan]

Trends. Between demand management, outages from severe weather, and thieves stealing copper from the substations, I am seriously considering a whole-house backup.

Regards,

Mike

 

[MikeHalloran]

Just don't forget the cage around your generator to keep the thieves from carting it away.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[SnTMan]

MikeHalloran, unfortunately, true.

Copper from substations and streetlights, central air from churches, you name it, all turned to scrap.

Maybe we oughta just supply 'em the drugs, it'd be cheaper by far

Regards,

Mike

 

[cranky108]

Can't just give them drugs, and food. That would make us an enabler of there problem. They need to fall hard, and pick themselves up on there own.

Good luck on generating your own. It isen't as easy as it looks.

Maybe something from another post is the answer. If lightning protection attracts lightning, then maybe it would help your smart grid hardware issues. I hear solid-state devices produce some preaty colored smoke.

 

[SnTMan]

cranky108, agree for food and everything else, disagree for drugs, give 'em all they want. Maybe they fall hard and don't get up. Their choice.

Not trying to turn the discussion, nothing further on this from me

 

[cranky108]

I reject the idea that we the population is to stupid to make decisions on energy usage. This is the same argument as economics, that we can't be expected to make the correct decision based on price.
I can however agree that for a rebait, we should consiter allowing some control of some appliances.

But is smart grid is used to control us, I disagre with it. If it is used, with a cost reduction, to help us, I can go for that.

Smart grid can be a great thing, or a matter of goverment control.

 

[GregLocock]

You must be a very smart fellow. Speaking personally I find it very hard to tell if my a/c needs switching off to prevent a brownout for the hospital down the road.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[jmw]

The hospital down the road has emergency power probably in the form of a large diesel engine or turbine.
In fact, given third party access to the network, if there is a brownout and they have built in surplus capacity they can, as an auto-producer, sell that extra to the grid.
But, autoproducers usually run their own power plants continuously and have enough use of the power and heat to make it efficient.
In any event, the chances are your A/C may get switched off as an unnecessary appliance along with everyone elses to stave of a potential brownout which sis fine if they leave the fridgefreezer running (this is for their own good - in the UK you get compensation from the power companies if your frozen foods get spoilt - so smart makes sense if they selectively shutdown kettles and things.
But they also have to have a social awareness which says they cannot shutdown heating (including central heating pumps) or A/C for the elderly. Actually, given the AGW mongers claiming so many heat deaths, they are committed to this one whether they know it or not and it may extend to more than just old folks and those at home with health problems, disabilities etc.
Oh, and they can shut down all those hollywood types Prius Charging systems.

All well and good so far.

But when they shut down your A/C but leave big Al's running is when you need to worry. Mind you I suspect we haven't been told the full story about Al Gore's homes.... he too probably has emergency power back up systems and it wont be from any wind turbines.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com