definition of " material sourced from China" ? 2

[davefitz]

A recent problem relates to valves supplied by a canadian valve company ( starts with a "V") for a US gas fired combined cycle plant.

Our valve spec stated "no materials sourced from China may be used ". We found the F91 forged small bore valves were stamped as forged in India, but the original bars were formed in China, then forged in India.

Is there a definition accepted as a "term of the trade" that specifies whn a substance becomes a "material"?

At other related components, we found high pressure high temp fittings recieved at the same site stamped as A182F22 but are in fact carbon steel.

 

[HgTX]

"sourced" is pretty fuzzy.

Here's language from the Buy America provisions for highway projects in the US; you might find their "manufacturing" definition of interest.

All manufacturing processes must take place domestically. Manufacturing is any process that modifies the chemical content; physical shape or size; or final finish of a product. Manufacturing begins with the initial melting and mixing, and continues through the bending and coating stages. If a domestic product is taken out of the US for any process, it becomes foreign source material.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[metengr]

Our valve spec stated "no materials sourced from China may be used ". We found the F91 forged small bore valves were stamped as forged in India, but the original bars were formed in China, then forged in India.

Material in the context is original material used for construction, not the finished product form. We use the same language for boiler tubing where we state "foreign sourcing of material shall be reviewed and approved by the Purchaser".

 

[IRstuff]

Your supplier is in violation of your purchase agreement. "Material" means "raw" material, which is supposedly from China. What was done in the meantime, and where, is irrelevant to the language of your specification. Your supplier did not do its required due diligence.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[stanweld]

I believe that your "no materials sourced from China" requirement would apply to the reforging billets provided from China. I would take that stance. The Chinese reforging billets may be continuously cast and not subject to approprate hot work required for a reforging billet. Small forgings typically do not have adequate hot work throughout during the forging process to "forge weld" any cast dicontinuities present in the "so called reforging" billet if the billet has not had appropriate hot work. Leaks should be expected during hydrotest or during service.

PMI should be used to confirm material identity as meeting the appropriate grade identified by the piece of paper (MTR) and the markings on the forging/casting/tubular, etc.

Materials identity is a major problem when dealing with any valve supplier. Valve parts may be manufactured by any number of manufacturers throughout our global economy.

 

[MintJulep]

Your spec language is ambiguous at best.

If you have a clause that flows down all of your requirement to all levels of sub-suppliers then you could be covered.

 

[rneill]

Interesting discussion. I agree with others that "no materials sourced from China" means that no raw material from China is acceptable without prior approval from the customer.

However, having said this I know that most suppliers do not interpret it this way. They seem to interpret this as "no finished products from China".

These days, it seems that all the major international manufacturers are sourcing raw materials from China. Hopefully, they are providing adequate QA/QC on the received raw materials to assure that finished products are acceptable but that probably varies a lot from one manufacturer to the next.

Many users accept raw materials from China provided the raw materials are finished by a reputable manufacturer that they have "approved" and that they trust to have properly inspected these raw materials.

 

[Guest102023]

This reminds me of the notice issued by Shell Global about P-91 HP steam piping that travelled to several locations in China, was shipped to Texas to be marked 'Made in USA' and then returned to China where it was finally installed. The pipe then split open longitudinally, taking three workers with it. I don't doubt the chemistry and mechanicals were all in spec. You boiler guys will all have seen it.

One problem as I see it is that metals sellers are no longer metals people, they are businessmen with franchises. You have all seen MTRs that have circled the planet several times visiting fax machines.

When I did failure analysis on new, defective pipe fittings, the answer to the question was usually the name of the offshore manufacturer who supplied it (all holding ASME stamps).

 

[stanweld]

One final thought; in terms of Contract language, consult your firm's attorney.

 

[plasgears]

Your restriction specification should be all inclusive to include material, processing, assy, etc. I had bad experience with the China connection. My story is told elsewhere in tips.

Note that fasteners used in US aviation products must be sourced in the US. This was an outcome from grossly out of spec aviation fasteners that showed up in the pipeline that allegedly originated in China.

 

[DSB123]

Buy Cheap toys from China - nothing else!!! You can't say plastic is anything other than plastic whereas carbon steel could be called alloy with markings of P91, P22 - you don't find out unless you PMI it!!!

 

[EdStainless]

When we buy items we require that all original certificates be included in the package.
If the melt MTR is missing we reject it regardless of where they say it came from.
I think your real issue with these parts is the poor forging work in India.

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Plymouth Tube

 

[DSB123]

EdStainless,
Remember a piece of paper can be copied/forged (no pun intended). Unless you know where the original material is from and it is a reasonable source you do not know for sure what it is that is being supplied. Mind you I always thought that's what the Quality Departments of Companies was for to check - check and check again!!!

 

[EdStainless]

We have gotten 'original MTRs' where the heat numbers didn't match that mills system. You have be skeptical and willing to make a few calls and a couple of trips.
If you try to source international from a desk you will end up broke and maybe in jail.

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Plymouth Tube

 

[HgTX]

Is "sourced" an unambiguously defined industry term? I'm thinkin' no. Around here we use it to refer to the supplier of the final product, but not in contract language.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[plasgears]

DSB,
I agree with you on limiting purchases from China. Your point about plastic does not address engineering plastics, which are far removed from cheap toy materials.

In my problem with China, our gear supplier went to China for acetal [Celcon] and we had a rash of infant mortality in a premium product line. We lost all our customers, the company was sold twice, and the multiplant operation is now a disaster scene.

I suspect that there is a strategic cause for China selling cheap. They may be financially undergirded by other enemies.

 

[bcd]

The sentence "no material sourced in China" is very explicit. First question would be why would someone write this rule into their standard? Obvious to nearly anyone who has been working in our industries that it is beacuse of concerns with sub-standard material based on facts. Real incidents that have occured causing dramatic property damage and more importantly, loss of life. The fact that the raw material came from China and was then forged in India in no way alleviate the concern of sub-standard material. What was done in India to validate or prove the material met the requisite standard? Chances are nothing was done. Now you are stuck with the risk. Push back on the supplier and make them prove the material is OK. At least next time, they won't disregard your requirements.

 

[DSB123]

bcd,
I think if the contract said "no material sourced in china" then there is a very good case to reject all of the final products and return to the supplier as they did not meet the contract requirements!!!